The Point?

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richmond62
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The Point?

Post by richmond62 »

What ultimately is the advantage of someone using a debranded version of LiveCode over the LC 9.6.3 Community Edition?

I think that this question needs to be answered in very clear terms, otherwise no one will bother with the debranded version.

I am NOT referring to any interface changes, I am only referring to functionality.
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OpenXTalkPaul
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Re: The Point?

Post by OpenXTalkPaul »

richmond62 wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:43 pm What ultimately is the advantage of someone using a debranded version of LiveCode over the LC 9.6.3 Community Edition?

I think that this question needs to be answered in very clear terms, otherwise no one will bother with the debranded version.

I am NOT referring to any interface changes, I am only referring to functionality.
Other than darkMode interface (at least on macOS), there almost NO advantages other than a few minor IDE bug fixes, slightly expanded syntax dictionary, and most importantly, me not being hassled with legal threats!

Although with that very question in mind, I have been considering loading the thing up with as many good (and GPL3 compatible) community addons, widgets and other extensions as I can find. I've already added a few (FluidSynth, Piano Widget, Dev Guides, etc.), but was thinking I should just load it up phat! Herman Hoch (R.I.P.) put a few really excellent widgets out with public license for example.

On the other hand that sort of collection like HH's work is the reason why I want to finish making a package manager, the one that LC started (with Builder and the in-IDE extension store, you know those other Extension Manager tabs that have never really been functional)

I'm now at the point where I am ready to make significant changes. Although I am still occasionally finding a reference to LC buried here or there, I'd say it's 97/98% done, it won't be more than 99.9% debranded until the engines are recompiled from source (to remove the embedded user registration stack).
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tperry2x
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Re: The Point?

Post by tperry2x »

Great to see that you are continuing to push ahead with OpenXTalk.

I'd say 'the point' is a means-to-an-end at the moment. Once all the LC debadging is done throughout, and OpenXTalk has no references to Livecode anymore, then it's at a point where improvements can be made. You are then working with a manageable beast. Things such as speed improvements, optimisations, additions to the OpenXTalk dictionary, additional syntax and features can all be added in time.

Getting OpenXTalk moved away from Livecode ensures that the project lives on, with passionate developers and a community that I've always found incredibly helpful.

Having said all that, it would be great to have native collision detection, gravity / physics simulation, setting a fixed FPS redraw rate on stacks... Yes, I'm full of ideas that can cause programmers headaches!
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Re: The Point?

Post by richmond62 »

Thanks for both of those.

BUT, in my case I can see the point: bit it needs to be made public: possibly on a webpage?
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Re: The Point?

Post by tperry2x »

You could just change the front page of the site when visiting https://openxtalk.org
If you list that in Google, this is the first page many visitors will land on (if they aren't going to the github repositories).

You could have a section above / underneath the "Join the Forum" button, that says something along the lines of "What is OpenXTalk", "What can you do with OpenXTalk?" - possibly have some examples of projects or standalones running on various platforms (desktop/laptop and mobile OS), perhaps show how it can be used in education or hobbyists looking to create something specific to fit their own purpose.

You could also then have a "Download OpenXTalk" button, which does not require anyone to sign in / sign up first, and then pick the flavour of OpenXTalk depending on your preferred OS.

Just my humble suggestions, for what it's worth.
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Re: The Point?

Post by OpenXTalkPaul »

I would like there to be a better, more information filled website, particularly when there's a release.
I was thinking this could be built / hosted, and editable on GitHub using simple markdown, which would mean you wouldn't need to be a web developer to work on it, just need to know some very basic markdown (it's pretty much same as formatting text in forums like this one). Here's an extremely basic example that is basically just a template: https://paulmcclernan.github.io
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Re: The Point?

Post by richmond62 »

https://richmondmathewson.owlstown.net/
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Re: The Point?

Post by OpenXTalkPaul »

richmond62 wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 8:27 am http://www.bluegriffon.org/#download
Nice, I'll give that a go. Wow, it has OCR (Optical Character Recognition) too!
Might be a bit of overkill for GitHub markdown pages though.
I've been using an Atom package that allows user to preview markdown in a browser preview pane.
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Re: The Point?

Post by micmac »

free responsive WYSIWYG website editor (Mac & PC)

https://www.ambiera.com/rocketcake/

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Re: The Point?

Post by FourthWorld »

richmond62 wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:43 pm What ultimately is the advantage of someone using a debranded version of LiveCode over the LC 9.6.3 Community Edition?
...
I am NOT referring to any interface changes, I am only referring to functionality.
Functionality is of course important, but when comparing any GPL-governed work to a proprietary alternative the prime differentiator is freedom, as defined in the governing license.

Prospective adoptees can compare bullet point feature lists all day if they choose, but ultimately a GPL-governed package is entirely useless to someone who wants to deliver a proprietary software; and a proprietary package is equally useless to someone intent on software freedom as expressed in the GPL.

Workarounds can be found for features, but the governing terms of distribution are definitive and absolute.

For this or any software where the alternative is exclusively proprietary, the key to evangelism will more readily be found in values and goals than in technical details.

Learn the culture of GPL advocacy. That's where the most ardent adopters will be found, and reaching them will require speaking their language, and sharing their values.

Know the Free Software Foundation's Four Freedoms, and celebrate them, pervasively even if subtly, throughout external communications:

- The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0).

- The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.

- The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help others (freedom 2).

- The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others (freedom 3). By doing this you can give the whole community a chance to benefit from your changes. Access to the source code is a precondition for this.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html
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richmond62
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Re: The Point?

Post by richmond62 »

I am well aware of those 4 freedoms, but, surely they are there in the licence of the GPL versions of LiveCode
that contain LiveCode branding.
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Re: The Point?

Post by TerryL »

To Micmac & Paul: I've been using RocketCake for a week and I like it. Fast, well thought out. I think it would make a nice webpage editor for Openxtalk. The program layout looks very familiar. It's website has features that could be emulated. Thanks micmac for suggesting it. Terry
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Re: The Point?

Post by micmac »

For those who likes/conciders Rocketcake

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfRzRl ... ZmA/videos

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Re: The Point?

Post by TerryL »

I made a basic oxt website demo with RocketCake. Just offering a suggestion. Easier to edit and modify than my previous demo. I think it's closer to what you had in mind. Requires RocketCake to open. Terry
[edit: much effort to upload]
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OpenXTalkPaul
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Re: The Point?

Post by OpenXTalkPaul »

richmond62 wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 7:36 pm I am well aware of those 4 freedoms, but, surely they are there in the licence of the GPL versions of LiveCode
that contain LiveCode branding.
They are there in the licence of the GPL versions of LiveCode.
And those LCC Repos are archived. No changes will ever be pushed to those repos again, but we can fork as much (or little) of it as you like as long as it complies with the GPLv3 license (so GPLv3, or one of many compatible licenses).

FYI guys, I'm still working at this as much as I can, but also having elderly family member issues (on both sides) so I've been a bit busy...
However I did squeeze in time for starting an Builder Extension Wrapper for the eSpeak GPL voice synth library, this will be used for Linux Speech in OXT's own implementation of a unified Speech library.

Read release notes on recent LC commercial builds, interesting to read that they've basically did the same as me and added in 'Guide' Rulers functionality like what has been released into the public by HH,BN, and Ferris Logic. That's definitely a great feature to include, one that I actually find useful frequently, and works well in OXT too!
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richmond62
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Re: The Point?

Post by richmond62 »

elderly family member issues
I feel for you there. Over the last 12 years my wife and I have nursed her Mum, her Dad, and my Dad until they died.
Not much fun for anyone.

My Mum still soldiers on (at rising 92: what a champion).

Obviously family concerns should take precedence over anything else.

Love, Richmond.
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richmond62
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Re: The Point?

Post by richmond62 »

By the way: I don't know, Paul, if you are still following this:

https://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=36784

or

https://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=36678

But "our friends across the fence" have let things slip quite badly re Linux.

Quoting myself . . . LOL . . .

"if one has a Linux LiveCode installer on a USB drive one can
test it using a LiveBoot USB disk: so that involves about 15 minutes per distro."
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Re: The Point?

Post by tergolap »

One of the link requires me to use User+Password (LC Forums Account).

Anyway, I read the one with all your notes regarding Linux. Good job on documenting this. Although, I think some issues are not LC issues, but just Linux as it is. Over the years of using Linux I've stumbled over hundreds of issues that turned out to be just a missing package, a missing config or a standard behavior of the used Window Manager or Desktop Environment.

A year ago I still used LC CE on Linux Mint, Manjaroo Linux, MX Linux, without encountering "real issues" in terms of Bugs I'd relate to LC. This might be due to my little knowledge of LC, however.

To make it short: oXt seems to me - as of it's history - as a very MacOS centric environment, leaning towards what an Apple User might expect. And Linux on it's own is different and every Desktop (Gnome, XFCE, LXDE, KDE) and Window Manager is different too. There are so many possible configurations and options.
Cheers,

T.

I'm not a native speaker, but I try my best.
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richmond62
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Re: The Point?

Post by richmond62 »

Screen Shot 2022-03-01 at 2.01.44 PM.png
Screen Shot 2022-03-01 at 2.01.44 PM.png (223.44 KiB) Viewed 3785 times
-
How about getting away from the incredibly crass "Think Different by getting Grammar Wrong"
paradigm?

AND, what about 32-bit and 64-bit builds?
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richmond62
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Re: The Point?

Post by richmond62 »

a very MacOS centric environment
Can you point out what makes you think that?
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