Tailspin

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richmond62
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Re: Tailspin

Post by richmond62 »

Low Code . . . . I wonder what on earth that means?
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Well, those mail drops keep me entertained at least, even if not informed. 8-)
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richmond62
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Re: Tailspin

Post by richmond62 »

So after cod-scientific claims about using different parts of the brain to use LiveCode,
we now have a video from 'The School of Life': an organisation of dubious provenance:

"The School of Life has been criticized for its inaccurate representations of philosophers and its weak philosophical arguments. The Los Angeles Review of Books has criticized a series of books by the School of Life as being a "vortex of jargon pitched somewhere between the banal banter of daytime talk shows and the schedule for a nightmarish New Age retreat." Professor Hans-Georg Moeller of the University of Macau has criticized the School's video on Lao Tzu, stating that it used fabricated quotes and misrepresented the Dao De Ching."

Wikipedia [for what it's worth: the articles referenced are below, and probably more reliable.] (my emphasis)

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/how ... l-of-life/

https://youtu.be/O3y7aiwp4sY
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OpenXTalkPaul
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Re: Tailspin

Post by OpenXTalkPaul »

richmond62 wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 7:37 am So after cod-scientific claims about using different parts of the brain to use LiveCode,
we now have a video from 'The School of Life': an organisation of dubious provenance:

"The School of Life has been criticized for its inaccurate representations of philosophers and its weak philosophical arguments. The Los Angeles Review of Books has criticized a series of books by the School of Life as being a "vortex of jargon pitched somewhere between the banal banter of daytime talk shows and the schedule for a nightmarish New Age retreat." Professor Hans-Georg Moeller of the University of Macau has criticized the School's video on Lao Tzu, stating that it used fabricated quotes and misrepresented the Dao De Ching."

Wikipedia [for what it's worth: the articles referenced are below, and probably more reliable.] (my emphasis)

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/how ... l-of-life/

https://youtu.be/O3y7aiwp4sY
I don't usually read any of their email blasts (I'm really bad with keeping up on my email in general) but
"vortex of jargon pitched somewhere between the banal banter.." seems to cover it, and I do find it extremely annoying when they wanted people to have to spend a bunch of money for some webinar or spend their vacation days at their dev con just to find out what that jargon (their future plans for LiveCode Builder for example) actually means in the real-world! No one but their dedicated current customers / fans will be on that "new-age retreat" (lol).

I do recall a few months back hearing about how they had partnered with some low-code web site (code blocks paradigm I think), but I can't recall where the minimal amount of details were given. I imagine it's an attempt to be like the other "cloud"/web based IDEs like Google App Maker, Appian, or a plethora of other low-code / no-code web things. Lots of luck to them, they're facing some BIG guns in that area!
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Re: Tailspin

Post by richmond62 »

So, the LiveCode people are promoting 'The Culture Map' by Erin Meyer,
which by all accounts is an invaluable guide to navigating between some cultures and some other.
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I have always wondered why, if LiveCode is based in Scotland, why all their spelling and syntax is American.

AND I doubt any of their staff can speak either Scots (Lallans) or Gaelic.

At least with Paul at the helm, he being North American, we won't have to worry about any culturo-linguistic
miss-matches between the IDE and . . . . :mrgreen:
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Re: Tailspin

Post by richmond62 »

More 'blah', and very little concrete:
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"We need to hear from our critics."

Well, Yes, you do: but you only WANT to hear from a selected number of critics who butter
you up and lob you ideas which jive with what you have already decided on for your new interface.

"You've recently signed up for a trial of LiveCode. This makes you potentially eligible to join our Focus Group aimed at making the next iteration of LiveCode the best possible offering in the low/no-code space. Whether you loved the trial, hated the trial or haven't even started the trial..."

Well, hell, yeah! Let's select feedback from people who are going to work with the current IDE-GUI for only
10 days.

Now why would that be?

Could it be because those people who have been using LC for the last 10-20 years are telling you something you don't
want to hear?

"all singing all dancing modern shiny low code offering it can be."

emphasis mine

Why does that make me think of PowerPoint and so on?

Unfortunately my friend Cecil did not have the presence of mind to take notes when he completed
the survey:
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richmond62
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Re: Tailspin

Post by richmond62 »

Currently involved in some 'low coding': a new septic tank:
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Eat your heart out, 'you-know-who'. :lol:
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Re: Tailspin

Post by richmond62 »

Presumably the reason why this:

https://program.livecode.com/

looks like this:
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Is because the much-vaunted LiveCode 10, with its all-singing-all-dancing new GUI/IDE, is STILL
stuck at Developer Preview after 10 months.

I bet a few people are crunching their way through the headache pills wondering how they are going to spin this one.
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Re: Tailspin

Post by richmond62 »

A prolonged pregnancy: most babies come to term in 9 months:
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“year of reinvention”

"the rebirth of LiveCode as LiveCode 10"
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Re: Tailspin

Post by tperry2x »

Call me cynical, but wouldn't it be funny if the reason for all these delays from the 'mother-ship', comes from the fact that we don't have an updated engine for OpenXTalk.
So, wouldn't it be a huge coincidence that when the engine is recompiled for OpenXTalk, if LiveCode 10 suddenly becomes available as all 'shiny, new and reinvented'.

I just hope that nobody over at LiveCode gets the bright idea to look at the hard work being done on OpenXTalk, and sees fit to 'borrow' all the improvements for themselves.
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richmond62
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Re: Tailspin

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As LC is commercial, let's hope that Paul's licence for OXT is sufficiently copyleft that LC cannot simply snaffle all of his work.

Yes, you are being cynical, but, possibly not without reason.
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Re: Tailspin

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It would also be totally pathetic if LC started to compete with OXT.

But, as SuperCard has committed Hari-Kiri by stating there will be no 64-bit version, and, cheaply, blaming Apple for that, LC has NO competitors, and as anyone who can think a bit will realise, that is distinctly unhealthy.

Having fixated on Debian derivative GNU-Linux operating systems for about 20 years, I am now fooling around with Haiku. And why, forbye?

Because putting one's hens in one basket is asking for trouble, sooner or later, and probably sooner.
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FourthWorld
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Re: Tailspin

Post by FourthWorld »

Can you point us to a more recent study with better methodology?
richmond62 wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:31 pm SShot 2023-01-22 at 16.26.31.png
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In the sorts of circles I move in claims like that are just plain hilarious
if they are not backed up by references so the original research can be checked.

Ah: here it is:

Using Cognitive Load Theory to select an environment for teaching ...https://researchportal.scu.edu.au › pdfCoverPage

Of course the 'free' and 'open source' are now completely out of date:
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page 6
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"Less brain power", my Aunt Fanny!

The conclusions section at the end of that paper are far from simplistic (mainly because the study was conducted by
real academics and not folk trying to sell washing powder).

"The design and application of the cognitive load analysis method described here offers a prospective way for instructors to assess different IDEs in a wide range of contexts. The method is open to modification with respect both to the cognitive load factors that are considered and to the calibration of scoring used to assign values."
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Re: Tailspin

Post by FourthWorld »

This is a very serious allegation. And given the vastly different goals for OXT's and LC's respective next versions, difficult to fathom how one could arrive at it.

What is your conjecture based on?
tperry2x wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:52 pm Call me cynical, but wouldn't it be funny if the reason for all these delays from the 'mother-ship', comes from the fact that we don't have an updated engine for OpenXTalk.
So, wouldn't it be a huge coincidence that when the engine is recompiled for OpenXTalk, if LiveCode 10 suddenly becomes available as all 'shiny, new and reinvented'.

I just hope that nobody over at LiveCode gets the bright idea to look at the hard work being done on OpenXTalk, and sees fit to 'borrow' all the improvements for themselves.
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Re: Tailspin

Post by FourthWorld »

richmond62 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:53 pm It would also be totally pathetic if LC started to compete with OXT.
Extemely unlikely. GPL and proprietary licenses serve very different use cases.
But, as SuperCard has committed Hari-Kiri by stating there will be no 64-bit version, and, cheaply, blaming Apple for that, LC has NO competitors, and as anyone who can think a bit will realise, that is distinctly unhealthy.
Define "competition".

If that means, "competing for the attention of those who use xTalk exclusively", then that would be so.

If you mean "making apps" it's a very different picture.

For example, I'd wager there are more people typing JavaScript during the time it takes me to write this than the sum of all xTalkers ever.
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Re: Tailspin

Post by richmond62 »

I mean within the xTalk world [probably shrinking to the extent that 'world' may be inaccurate].

I believe that competition within the xTalk whatever would result in xTalks getting better, AND possibly increasing xTalks' chances of increasing their market share.
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Re: Tailspin

Post by richmond62 »

'those who use xTalk exclusively' must be a very small number of people indeed.

I would suppose that quite a few people who do not use an xTalk at all might find one useful for certain tasks were they aware if it and its capabilities at all.

However, the single active [?] producer of an xTalk is most singularly not involved in outreach in any sort of meaningful fashion, and, on its website it comes across as a club of self-satisfied 'crusties' like the freemasons, oh, and some guff it has been recycling about one school in Edinburgh for yonks.

When I was mucking around on a very substandard Masters degree course about 20 years, I ran up a relatively substantial starter for an agent-led system for teachers and so on to run up apps for course material delivery and reinforcement in what was then called Runtime Revolution 2. The only really insightful comment I received was made by the vice-principle of a high school when he remarked, "Wow, that's a wonderful thing for running up a rapid prototype." So, why the 'flying fudge' xTalk has not been promoted, in addition to other uses, as the IDEAL prototyping tool is another of those eternal questions that often wake me up in the Brahma-Muhurta.
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Re: Tailspin

Post by richmond62 »

Recent studies with better methodology?

No, but I would not post one that is so obviously shot full of holes just because there is nothing else.

Shout about xTalk's strengths: with working examples.
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Re: Tailspin

Post by tperry2x »

FourthWorld wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:48 pm This is a very serious allegation....
It's not an allegation. Not until it happens. Until then it's just conjecture.
FourthWorld wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:48 pm What is your conjecture based on?
Life experience.
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richmond62
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Re: Tailspin

Post by richmond62 »

I remember when Apple were banging on about Microsoft having stolen their Windows 95 GUI from Mac OS 8: which was very funny as Apple seem to have lifted their WIMP GUI directly from IBM, and I remember fooling around on an extremely similar thing on a Welcome Disc on my BBC Master Compact way back when, as my children used to say, "Dinosaurs roamed the earth."

So, getting 'prickly' about who might be pinching ideas from whom is rather a waste of time: and why FFS would you just pay for lawyers to get fat?

William Shakespeare nicked about 90 of his plotlines, ideas, and so forth: didn't stop him being bloody brilliant and writing plays that knocked spots off everyone else, including the ultimately crappy and badly-written plays he ripped off.

I have written 2 Masters degree theses which were both described as 'brilliant' and 'innovative', yet there was not an original idea in either of them: but [and here is what does matter], there was an original synthesis.

So, well, err, yes, accusations, conjectures, and so and so 'fifth'; life's probably too short to get all roiled up about this.
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Re: Tailspin

Post by FourthWorld »

tperry2x wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:57 am
FourthWorld wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:48 pm This is a very serious allegation....
It's not an allegation. Not until it happens. Until then it's just conjecture.
Thank you for confirming you have nothing on this but conjecture.

I know Paul, Kevin, and Mark personally. I know how they work. Paul's dedication is admirable, but there is nothing Kevin and Mark would want to take from here.
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