Never Give a Sucker an Even Break

All sorts of amusements and nonsense unrelated to xTalk
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richmond62
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Never Give a Sucker an Even Break

Post by richmond62 »

is a 1941 Universal Pictures comedy film starring W. C. Fields. Fields also wrote the original story, under the pseudonym "Otis Criblecoblis." Fields plays himself, promoting an extravagant screenplay he has written. As he describes the script to a skeptical producer, the often surreal scenes are shown."
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Here is 'that man again' passing round the begging bowl . . .
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Writing as someone who donated to that man and his company 3 times, and, as far as I can see, been short-changed at least twice,
who is going to fall for that one again?
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Xavvi will be based on our well established LiveCode platform with the English LiveCode language as its core. It will represent the biggest step forward for our platform since V1.0. Xavvi is the future of how you’ll create apps with LiveCode technologies though we’ll continue to maintain LiveCode for those that need it."

My emphasis.

Why does that last sentence make me think of pilots bailing out of a cockpit?

Reading between the lines I see LiveCode transitioning from being HyperCard's grandson to being a robot-driven powerpoint thing.
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richmond62
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Re: Never Give a Sucker an Even Break

Post by richmond62 »

I do think that the people in Edinburgh need to step back and take a long, hard look at themselves.
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But, I suspect they will ride roughshod over people who are pointing out things they don't want to see, hear or listen to.
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Re: Never Give a Sucker an Even Break

Post by richmond62 »

This:

"LiveCode has a history going back to around 1998, when the very first idea for a Revolutionary Rapid App Development tool started taking shape."

Emphasis mine.

Is going to make Bill Atkinson, and the Metacard people feel unhappy, because it is NOT TRUE.

HyperCard was released in 1987.

Supercard was released in 1989.
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Re: Never Give a Sucker an Even Break

Post by richmond62 »

Obviously several people have been reading between the lines, & . . .

https://livecode.com/xavvi/xavvi-vs-livecode/

However, as my History teacher used to say, "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."

The choice of the title of the posting was either unfortunate or prescient (let's hope it just the former).

"The Great Leap Forward (Second Five Year Plan) of the People's Republic of China (PRC) was an economic and social campaign led by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) from 1958 to 1962. CCP Chairman Mao Zedong launched the campaign to reconstruct the country from an agrarian economy into a communist society through the formation of people's communes. Mao decreed that efforts to multiply grain yields and bring industry to the countryside should be increased. Local officials were fearful of Anti-Rightist Campaigns and they competed to fulfill or over-fulfill quotas which were based on Mao's exaggerated claims, collecting non-existent "surpluses" and leaving farmers to starve to death. Higher officials did not dare to report the economic disaster which was being caused by these policies, and national officials, blaming bad weather for the decline in food output, took little or no action. Millions of people died in China during the Great Leap, with estimates ranging from 15 to 55 million, making the Great Chinese Famine the largest or second-largest famine in human history."
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Kdjanz
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Re: Never Give a Sucker an Even Break

Post by Kdjanz »

On the Xavvi comments page, I just posted the following:
So how does Xavvi compare with Appli? Competitors? They sound extremely similar and Mark Talluto has been working on Appli for years already. Why would I take a flier on Xavvi when Appli is shipping now?

Questions… I’ve got a lot of questions…
Take a look at appli.io and see if you think there are similarities. I wonder how Mark Talluto feels about this? It sort of smells like a rip-off to me, seeing as Mark has been working tightly with LiveCode for a couple of years at least to make Appli work.

Dunno, but I don't think I would like it.
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Re: Never Give a Sucker an Even Break

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Other, bigger software companies (c.f. Apple, Microsoft, and so on) have been ripping off other people's ideas for at least 30+ years.

Shakespeare ripped off ideas like there was no tomorrow.

However, our friends in Edinburgh are not Apple, not Microsoft, and not Shakespeare. They depend on a really very small installed base who have demonstrated remarkable product loyalty, have donated lots of money from promises (a lot of which failed to materialise), and a lot of time helping one another keep working with rhe product.

Our friends have demonstrated oodles of insensitivity to people while blethering on about a 'community' . . .
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Re: Never Give a Sucker an Even Break

Post by richmond62 »

Xavvi makes me feel a bit lumpy . . . .
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Kdjanz
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Re: Never Give a Sucker an Even Break

Post by Kdjanz »

Gee! What a surprise!

It seems my questions did not survive moderation and have disappeared completely off the page.

The King has no clothes!

Kdjanz wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2023 2:51 am On the Xavvi comments page, I just posted the following:
So how does Xavvi compare with Appli? Competitors? They sound extremely similar and Mark Talluto has been working on Appli for years already. Why would I take a flier on Xavvi when Appli is shipping now?

Questions… I’ve got a lot of questions…
Take a look at appli.io and see if you think there are similarities. I wonder how Mark Talluto feels about this? It sort of smells like a rip-off to me, seeing as Mark has been working tightly with LiveCode for a couple of years at least to make Appli work.

Dunno, but I don't think I would like it.
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Re: Never Give a Sucker an Even Break

Post by richmond62 »

You obviously touched a nerve there.

The problem is not just that the king has no clothes, but that the naked king's empire seems to be getting smaller.
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Re: Never Give a Sucker an Even Break

Post by Kdjanz »

Gee! What a surprise!

It seems my questions did not survive moderation and have disappeared completely off the page.
I did get an email response from Heather (whom I've communicated with several times in the past):
Heather Laine has replied to your comment on

No Code Development with Xavvi

It's a big market. There's room for everyone. Appli is somewhat different and we wish them all the best. For your questions, do join us for the Webinar tomorrow, Tuesday at 4pm UK time. If you didn't get an email with the invitation, I'm about to post the link to the Updates tab.
I also have to take back my snark, because Heather has replaced my question and her answer on the public web page. So hopefully, they will have a public answer and response in the Tuesday Webinar.

I'm going to try to log in for the webinar if I can make time zones work.
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Re: Never Give a Sucker an Even Break

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Work commitments prevent me from attending/witnessing the Xavvi event.

So will be grateful for your opinion.
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Re: Never Give a Sucker an Even Break

Post by FourthWorld »

Kdjanz wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2023 2:51 am I wonder how Mark Talluto feels about this? It sort of smells like a rip-off to me, seeing as Mark has been working tightly with LiveCode for a couple of years at least to make Appli work.

Dunno, but I don't think I would like it.
I've been helping out with Mark and the rest of the growing Appli team a bit over the last few months, and while I can't speak for Mark I know they talk often and the relationship seems amicable.

Personally, I'd love to see LC focus on building more relationships like the one with Appli, where the LC team makes full use of their deep technical expertise to focus on delivering a powerful core engine, supporting any number of downstream platforms where a different team composition works well for delivering user-friendly systems requiring intensive UX background.
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Re: Never Give a Sucker an Even Break

Post by richmond62 »

Quite a few of us would love LC to focus on different things than they do, and several of us have expressed that over the years.

LC have never really given the impression that they are listening.
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Re: Never Give a Sucker an Even Break

Post by Kdjanz »

https://livecode.wistia.com/medias/zhu7fua9yh

Here is the video link for everyone to make their own judgements.

My personal thoughts and opinions:

A bit of a confusing event because of what I see as the broad overlap between the changes coming in v10.5+ and Xavvi. I couldn't really tell whether Xavvi was a real upgrade to v10 or just a re-branding of the IDE. The AI part of it is supplied by ChatGPT in various forms, and that worked almost exactly as you would expect if you have seen demos of CoPilot etc. with other languages. It mostly worked on the simplistic examples shown and no one had any big demo disasters. For me, what was shown was "nice" and "interesting" but not compelling and certainly no reason to reach for my wallet.

There were some protests in the comments about April 27 being awfully close and not being able to kick the wheels themselves on a demo. The push back from Kevin was that April 27 was a firm deadline for support although you were free to make your case privately. I really had the feeling of "pig in a poke" and deadline sales pressure tactics.

There were many people on line for the presentation - my impression was "100's" but I have no metrics to really base that on. Most seem to be LC regulars with a sprinkling of newbie questions. Some of the regulars were not holding back and were offering pointed questions and comments. I posted my two questions that I had previously aired here and on the website, and they were answered (although not in posting order) with a bit of handwaving and no substantive information.

There were A LOT of questions for the Q&A. They had allowed 15 minutes originally I think, but ended up recording 45 minutes with more questions left to be answered later via website or email. The quite a few questions seemed to echo my puzzlement on the overlap between LC 10+ (not going away - still being developed as the platform and engine of Xavvi) and Xavvi (new core of LC going forward - if you're going to only have one license, it should be a Xavvi license). Definitely mixed messages. It seems that Xavvi costs them a LOT in cloud resources for AI especially, so Kevin said that the price points between the two platforms could never be comparable. There was also some muttering about the ChatGPT engine and hallucinations, and there was an acknowledgment that it was possible. If so, just restate your prompt and try again.

As of this posting, the meter is at 6% and $23.5K and did not move significantly pre or post presentation. They say they have given themselves 22 more days to go, but the incentives expire tomorrow which seems like a real DISincentive to me. Perhaps their record on fund raising is catching up with them. I did not sense any ground swell of support from people saying "I've got to have this now!".

After going to Flutter/Dart after LC (dropped because of their Mac support holes), I ended up committing to the SwiftUI environment. I only use Macs and live in a completely Apple ecosystem (never even picked up an Android phone, and gave up on linux trying to find my flavour) so I realized (belatedly!) that all the cross platform hassles were just noise to me. I'll stick close to the mothership because it's free and will not go away on me ever. The only reason I am here is that HyperTalk was my first language and even now, if I think of a new art form or idea of what I want to see on my computer, I think of it in HyperTalk and have to mentally shift gears. I don't dream in Swift yet, and I know from learning other languages (French, Danish, Portuguese, Dutch) that this is the marker for gut level comfort for me.

I hope that OXT will live on, and I will probably always have a copy somewhere on the drive even if it is no longer first choice.

Do watch the video and make your own conclusions.
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Re: Never Give a Sucker an Even Break

Post by richmond62 »

Thank you very much for the video link: I shall go through that next week when I have some time to give it
my full attention.

Taking its time:
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Kdjanz
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Re: Never Give a Sucker an Even Break

Post by Kdjanz »

29% funded with 6 days to go. $72K is not going to take them very far given the target costs.
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Re: Never Give a Sucker an Even Break

Post by richmond62 »

Yup.

Certainly, I felt their answers to the questions (both mine and others) were not completely convincing.

I, also, think that Kevin's "learn LiveCode by looking at what the robot gives you" was a bit like the chicken and the egg.
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Re: Never Give a Sucker an Even Break

Post by FourthWorld »

Costs for integrating machine-generated works just went up:
The text of the amendment agreed by MEPs in two committees put obligations on providers of foundational models to apply safety checks, data governance measures and risk mitigations prior to putting their models on the market -- including obligating them to consider "foreseeable risks to health, safety, fundamental rights, the environment and democracy and the rule of law".

The amendment also commits foundational model makers to reduce the energy consumption and resource use of their systems and register their systems in an EU database set to be established by the AI Act. While providers of generative AI technologies (such as ChatGPT) are obliged comply with transparency obligations in the regulation (ensuring users are informed the content was machine generated); apply "adequate safeguards" in relation to content their systems generate; and provide a summary of any copyrighted materials used to train their AIs.
"EU lawmakers back transparency and safety rules for generative AI"
https://news.yahoo.com/eu-lawmakers-bac ... 49792.html

And the value of using machine-generated works went down:
Both in its 2019 decision and its decision this February, the USCO found the “human authorship” element was lacking and was wholly necessary to obtain a copyright, Engadget’s K. Holt wrote. Current copyright law only provides protections to “the fruits of intellectual labor” that “are founded in the creative powers of the [human] mind,” the USCO states.
"U.S. Copyright Office Rules A.I. Art Can’t Be Copyrighted"
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne ... 180979808/
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Re: Never Give a Sucker an Even Break

Post by richmond62 »

Does that then mean that LC are going to abandon Xavvi, or put it on the backburner?

As their fundraiser is homemade they are not obliged to return donations: let us hope, should they keep the money that has been donated, that they are at least transparent with what they will do with it.
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Re: Never Give a Sucker an Even Break

Post by FourthWorld »

richmond62 wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 5:02 pm Does that then mean that LC are going to abandon Xavvi, or put it on the backburner?
Which "that"?
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