Never Give a Sucker an Even Break

[FourthWorld]

LC 963 is currently NOT on MacOS 14 Developer preview.

I have sent a report to Apple.

There was a similar problem with the first MacOS 13 public beta which was sorted out.

That was lucky. I would not bank on being equally lucky with each new issue discovered going forward.

So an OXT build that runs on MacOS 14 now would steal a march on our friends in Scotland.

To "steal a march" from anyone isn't an interesting goal to me, and likely not relevant to them or their subscribers.

Most of their current subscribers make proprietary apps, something any GPL governed work cannot do.

The enterprise uses with internal apps can benefit from a FOSS edition, but in my conversations with some of them I see a clear pattern: LC was introduced into their workflow many years ago, and even where it's still adding (sometimes significant) value it's scheduled for replacement with something more "industry standard", something with more dev resources available than the handful of remaining LC consultants, and/or simply a better fit for evolving business needs. Many of these re-implementations are underway right now.

A FOSS xTalk matters to an audience larger than the members of this list to the degree that such an audience can be reached, and that the project can demonstrate long-term viability with fresh engine builds to keep current with the ongoing changes from OS vendors.

This means both marketing and dev budgets.

And donations are hard to come by without grants and tax deductions, both available to a 501c3 nonprofit. But setting up and maintaining a corporate shell for this as a sort of OpenXTalk Foundation is a lot of work.

Running though a some back-of-a-napkin numbers several weeks ago, I'd estimate that establishing such a foundation would take a crowdfunding effort of at least $180k for the first year. Subsequent years would need to become self-sustaining through ongoing grant and fundraising efforts.

Long-term sustainability of a million-line code base is not a simple problem to solve.

[richmond62]

That was lucky.

I suspect that happened NOT because some Apple person thought, "Let's sort out LC 963."

More likely, something else was sorted out for quite different reasons and LC 8.0 through 9.6.3 working
was just a very lucky side effect.

[richmond62]

To "steal a march"

was conceived in this context to motivate someone rather than score points off LC.

[FourthWorld]

To "steal a march"

was conceived in this context to motivate someone rather than score points off LC.

It's open source. When a project is viable that "someone" is us.

[richmond62]

Things are still NOT with MacOS developer preview 2 [23A5276g].

[OpenXTalkPaul]

..I got some good news today as a community member reported being able to edit the Engine build scripts to build entirely from source on Linux.

So is that producing a build of the engine on Linux?
using updated libraries and dependencies to address security issues?

So, do we have a ready-to-use appimage of this anywhere? Windows? MacOS 14 Sonoma? Arm support?

Any news greatly appreciated. I would like to use this for some upcoming projects, but would prefer if it was using an updated and patched engine as the apps I create may be used in a production environment where security matters.

I can NOT recommend using OXT in a production environment (beyond building some in-house custom tools), but if you do... there's plenty that could be done to work around any security issues (for example write scripts that use sub-process shell app instead of a built-in OXT handler, example: use 'curl' instead of rev libURL to download file data).

As far as I know Mark is only updating for building on and for Linux (but that also includes 'HTML5' Emscripten builds). As long as there are dependencies that have been compiled for ARM available, we SHOULD be able to build for ARM on Linux, but since there hasn't been a publicly released ARM build since 7.x (someone did build 8.x for ARM but did not release the build to the public), there may be issues I'm not aware of.

[richmond62]

While I dislike Windows its ever-lasting backwards compatibility is better than Apple's trick of making you have to fork over lots of dosh to upgrade your day-to-day sofware with every new system version.

I am currently running RunRev 2 for Linux on my Dad's old 32-bit Toshiba laptop running Debian 12 XFCE,
as well as LC 7.1.4 and LC 9.6.3 . . .

[richmond62]

In spite of claims to the contrary, it is very odd that LiveCode central are completely shtum re any ongoing Xavvi development.

The funny thing is, that were I developing something that, according to my fundraiser, was "The Next Best Thing", I would be shouting
about it non-stop so that potential buyers did not lose focus and wander off elsewhere.

The LC Blog consists of articles about things that have NIX to do with Xavvi: it has all gone VERY QUIET indeed.

https://livecode.com/blog/

OK, OK: to be 'fair' Xavvi was mentioned on May 12: slightly more than 9 weeks ago.

And that article is so nebulous I wonder what its point is.

"If you are looking closely you might now be realising that Xavvi is a better version of LiveCode that is designed for today’s market."

I did and did NOT see that explained at all, at all.
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SShot 2023-07-16 at 12.51.13.png (4.5 KiB) Viewed 1620 times

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Well, let's not hope as many lies as with previous fund raisers.

[tperry2x]

Yet another white elephant it would seem

[richmond62]

Personally I'd far rather spend money on stuff that makes me see pink elephants: then, at least I will have 'no illusions' about what they are. LOL.

[richmond62]

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Screen Shot 2023-07-24 at 4.50.46 pm.png (328.63 KiB) Viewed 1566 times

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'a few weeks'

. . . . . currently running at 8 weeks with no hair nor hide in sight, nor even a progress report.

[richmond62]

Holy Cow:

http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-l ... 70722.html

Come to think of things, I'll quote it before it gets deleted:

"I’ve had to abandon a project and hence a client and hence LiveCode all together because of this single solitary issue. My company went bankrupt and is now dissolved because of this.

LC have told me not to speak out against them as a company on this platform for fear of being removed from this chat area. Sure, some of the decisions made by me have led to the dissolving of Pi Digital Productions Ltd, but a lot WAS based on the PROMISE made pre-pandemic by LC that HTML5 would be ready for live, non-beta use ‘soon’.

4 years on and having paid for a HTML5 licence I STILL have not been able to use, clients become frustrated and annoyed that we STILL have been unable to deliver and the bitten bullet eventually explodes in our faces.

This is the primary reason I have not been heard from on this area for a while now. I am now working as a shop assistant in a local shop having moved to a remote area on the Isle of Skye. There’s not many employers who will take LiveCode experience as experience of coding. And there’s little hope of finding clients who will want or have their apps coded in LC.

Theoretically I should ask for a refund on the HTML license as they have simply not delivered on their promise. But I can’t be bothered with the hassle of arguing with a company who just don’t seem to listen. I know a lot of you here will disagree- but I can only speak from my own experience over the last 17 years. Besides, a refund would not come close to the amount my company haemorrhaged as a direct result of LC failing to deliver.

There, I’m guessing this will get me banned from this platform but, seeing as I can no longer use LC for anything practical, I suppose it no longer matters and most of you hear will be thinking ‘good riddance’ anyway.

Like me, LC will fail if they continue to be incapable of delivering on promises. Adding new features and/or applications without sorting out current ones and actually getting them into the wild will just add new problems and forget old ones. Our clients cannot work on a 5 year turnaround so how can LC continue to think we can accept it? It’s impossible working conditions. If a boss offered you better working conditions in a place of work but took 5 years to deliver on that promise, what would you think of them as a manager? This is effectively what was suffered. It amounts to unfair treatment in the workplace and caused me a great deal of anguish over the years, as many of you are well aware.

My hope is that LC read this for your benefits and learn from it. It’s too late for me - I’ve moved on. But hopefully they can get v10 and HTML out sooner rather than later so that you can actually begin to make use of your investments.

All the best and peace to you all. "

I do not think 'good riddance': I think that a few people need a kick in the balls [and NOT the person who posted that].

[FourthWorld]

Ever run SuperCard for Windows?

That program changed everything for me.

[richmond62]

No.

Ever run SuperCard on a 64-bit only version of MacOS?

[richmond62]

And the quoted post showed some else:

That LiveCode (the company) have demonstrated time and time again; they never keep their promises and they keep raking in the money from their fundraisers with not an apologetic look on their collective faces.

[FourthWorld]

Richmond, do you really want the OpenXTalk project to become defined by your disappointment with a separate corporation?

Is there really nothing interesting to discuss about the world's only free and open source xTalk?

[richmond62]

Is there really nothing interesting to discuss about the world's only free and open source xTalk?

As we are waiting on a set of semi-reliable cross-platform builds there is very little to discuss, at least from my point of view.

When we have something 'to get our teeth into', I, for one, will start by providing an icon set and a series of structured lessons for children on starting programming with open source xTalk.

[richmond62]

your disappointment with a separate corporation?

I am not disappointed with it; it is what it is: but I am surprised that it carries on the way it does when so many, many people have stated that they think the way it carries on is wrong and self-destructive.

[tperry2x]

As we are waiting on a set of semi-reliable cross-platform builds there is very little to discuss, at least from my point of view.

I would like to suggest that it's from everyone's point of view at the moment. There is still no OpenXTalk build for Windows (like it or not - (which I don't), Windows will be the biggest target audience).

I mean, yes - when you compare the fact that we have an out-of-date client for Linux and MacOS, at least it's *something*. It would be worse if we were charging money for a non-functional product, which seems to be the state of Livecode at the moment.

I don't want to keep harping on about the failures of Livecode, but the OpenXTalk reputation will be tarnished by what they are failing to deliver. We need to make it clear that OpenXTalk is nothing to do with Livecode and the current state it's in.

We can't expect to spread the word on OXT, or even get people interested if we don't have a readily downloadable, useable, and reliable build for all 3 major platforms (Win, Mac, Linux). To be able to offer this with no affilated Livecode branding is an absolute must.

But forgive me if I'm sounding like a broken record.

[FourthWorld]

Asking doesn't make software happen, coding does.

If we need a win coder, we may have to hire one.

So the best use of time for non-coders is is to think of fundraising options.