MacOS state of play Dec 2024

[Skids]

Hi,
I have been reading many posts on this forum trying to find out what my options are re continuing to write utilities for my own use on a recent Apple computer with an M2 chipset. This post is a request for a check of my understanding.

LC 9.6.3 was the last community version of Livecode. It is an intel app and runs on RISC machines (M1-Mn) through Rosetta 2.

OpenXtalk is based on LC 9.6.3 and is also an intel application and requires Rosetta 2 to run on M series of machines.

Modifying the "engine" in OpenXtalk to run natively on Apple Silicon is likely to be very difficult and may never happen.

Rosetta 2 will be disabled at some point in the near future, probably with the launch of a new OS. At this time OpenXtalk will no longer run and the same is true of any applications built using OpenXtalk or older versions of LC.

Options?

A) Don't upgrade to the new OS when it is issued.

B) Purchase an older intel mac and use that for creating programs. Store data on remote drives so that it may be processed on this older machine.

C) Run an older compatible OS in some form of virtual machine environment. UTM was suggested (https://mac.getutm.app/) but I guess Parallels or others could be used.

D) I read somewhere that it might be possible to get iOS builds to run on Apple Silicon but did not read if this had been confirmed.

F) Learn a different language (gulp).

G) Decide that I have had enough of Apple and jump to Linux/Windows.

So is my summary correct?

Simon

[TAK1974]

I’m having the same concerns. I just upgraded to an M4 pro Mac mini.

TK

[tperry2x]

There are plenty of Mac-Arm bits mentioned in the 9.7.0-dp1 source (which is what Windows and Linux builds of OXT Lite are currently using). I'm getting closer to getting the engine to compile on MacOS, still sorting out memory bugs aplenty - but this is on hold until I can upgrade my mac-dev machine. That may not happen until the new year.

No guarantee that this will result in an "Arm-mac engine" either. (m1/m2) - if I can get the mac version of the engine to compile first, that would be a huge achievement. An ARM version is not going to happen until the compile is at least working and comes back error-free.

Alternatively, your options for running the OXT/LCC 9.6.3 engine on Arm MacOS is either through Wiskey, or via an Arm-build of Wine which will allow you to run x86-32 and x86-64 intel Windows binaries under an M1/M2 processor.

(or obviously booting into a complete Windows VM and running in there).
iOS apps run natively on MacOS 10.15 (catalina) and up, however, you'd need to remake the entire IDE as an iOS app - which is no small task. I really meant that's a way of creating Arm-compatible standalones (at a stretch).

I'll quote my previous post (back in January) here.

Of course, people aren't bothered about arm support - until suddenly one day they are.

[OpenXTalkPaul]

Options?

C) Run an older compatible OS in some form of virtual machine environment. UTM was suggested (https://mac.getutm.app/) but I guess Parallels or others could be used.

UTM is pretty good, on Intel Macs it can run macOS 9.2.2 (PowerPC emulation), I believe is built on QEMU.
You'll want an an Apple Silicon-native version of whatever virtualiation software you're going to use.
And yes some can run virtualize versions of macOS on macOS, so no need to run any Windows OS or WINE Wrapping Windows exes. VirtualBox is a free VM tool, and I think VMWare is now free for personal use.

D) I read somewhere that it might be possible to get iOS builds to run on Apple Silicon but did not read if this had been confirmed.

This may very well be true, as Tom mention there is Wiskey (https://github.com/Whisky-App/Whisky) but the problem is no one who owns an Apple Silicon mac has tried it out yet to find out if it works with MacCatalyst (I would think it should). If you look in your System/Library/CoreServices/Applications folder there should be an app called 'iOS App Installer.app', my guess is that app is involved in the process.

Neither Tom nor I own an Apple Silicon Mac at the moment, which is what is required to try that, so if one of you guys who do own one could read up on how to do it, try it out and report back to us, that would be great!

G) Decide that I have had enough of Apple and jump to Linux/Windows.

Linux, that's the way I'm headed, and I had been an Mac-only (if I had a choice) user since 1987.

So is my summary correct?

For the most part, yeah.
There are a few other alternatives that are a bit less ideal, like for example you could wrap an 'Emscripten' standalone or an HTML 'WebStak' (HyperCard simulator 'format') in a Web-to-Desktop wrapper app like Electron, but then you'll probably need to know some HTML & JavaScript stuff to tweak it with to get it to work the way you'd want or expect.
[/quote]

Of topic but BTW.... Apple also moved the Keychain Access app to /System/Library/CoreServices/Applications/ in a recent macOS update (I really feel like Apple is slowly hiding or removing anything that isn't dumbed down enough).

[Skids]

Thanks for two detailed replies. When reading my initial post and replies please note that I do not have anything like the depth of knowledge of what happens under the hood as OpenXtalkPaul or tperry2x obviously do.

I think that I will initially go for a combination of older mac hardware and one of the virtual machine applications. Hardware wise I'm tempted by Linux although I don't know where to start; is that company that is building laptops that are designed to be upgraded still going and will Linux run on one of them?

This may very well be true, as Tom mention there is Wiskey (https://github.com/Whisky-App/Whisky) but the problem is no one who owns an Apple Silicon mac has tried it out yet to find out if it works with MacCatalyst (I would think it should). If you look in your System/Library/CoreServices/Applications folder there should be an app called 'iOS App Installer.app', my guess is that app is involved in the process.

I've just looked and the app is there.

screen shot

Screenshot 2024-12-10 at 09.36.58.png (34.99 KiB) Viewed 1794 times

So as a check of understanding the hypothesis is that it should be possible to use OpenXTalk running on an intel Mac (or VM) to build an iOS application that will run on an Apple Silicon/ARM mac. I will give it a try and report back.

Of topic but BTW.... Apple also moved the Keychain Access app to /System/Library/CoreServices/Applications/ in a recent macOS update (I really feel like Apple is slowly hiding or removing anything that isn't dumbed down enough).

I agree, its apparent if you contact Apple Support these days; they basically don't have a clue and if you mention running the odd terminal command they have a fit and behave like using the terminal is almost criminal. I'm sure that at some point in the future Apple will clamp down on the end users ability to download and run software in the same way as they have a strangle hold over iOS applications : I have two discarded ipads which are fully functional but are crippled because the App store does not allow older versions of applications to be downloaded unless they pre exist in a users account.

All of a sudden Linux and Android seem very attractive.

Simon

[richmond62]

All of a sudden Linux and Android seem very attractive.

Hmm: that reminds me of the two friends:

1. One married a man who looked like a Gorilla: "He's an incredibly intelligent, wonderful person, even if I cannot present him at court."

2. The other married a man who looked like a right toy boy, muscleman: "He's as stupid as a pile of bricks, but he turns everyone's heads when we
go out for a walk."

So, I would never state "Linux seems very attractive" as it it gives a false impression; the impression that, like MacOS and Windows, Linux is a uniform,
monolithic system, which Linux is most definitely not.

I will state "Some Linux versions are extremely attractive." I will also state "Some Linux versions are so awkward and demand such a steep learning curve and time and effort that they are probably not work adopting unless you are a person with a clearly defined niche requirement."

About 5 years ago I "had a whirl" with something called Elementary OS

https://elementary.io/

which, while looking really lovely, made me feel I was trying to ride a bicycle with one hand tied behind my back.

Certainly my personal experience with MC/RR/LC/OXT over the 20 years I have been deploying several Linux variants has been positive with
Early Ubuntu (went 'funny' after about 2007), Xubuntu and Debian.

However, be a bit careful as others who have at least as much experience as I do with xTalk and Linux disagree with me (in some cases quite strongly), so my advice is to take "soundings" from as many people as you can get hold of who deploy LC/OXT in a Linux variant.

[Skids]

# Richmond
Thanks for your advice. I'm not going to take any drastic action for the time being and jumping ship to another OS would be drastic.

# iOS app on Apple M series
It is very simple to download an ipad application from the store as it just installs and runs almost like any other application. I say almost as the window size appears restricted to ipad dimensions. Next I will try and create a Hello World application in OXT and to confirm that it works.

Simon

[Skids]

Unfortunately I have hit a dead end. I have never tried to build for iOS so this was all new to me. The issue is that inorder to complete a build the application requires a "provisioning profile". These are issued by the Apple Developer web site via Xcode but Apple requires that the developer is registered and has paid $99 for the privilege. There are web sites that explain how to get a profile for free and it may be possible but so far I have not found out how its achieved as these sites refer to version 7 of Xcode and OpenXtalk requires version 12.5 and the preferences, where profiles are created, are different.

S

[OpenXTalkPaul]

Unfortunately I have hit a dead end. I have never tried to build for iOS so this was all new to me. The issue is that inorder to complete a build the application requires a "provisioning profile". These are issued by the Apple Developer web site via Xcode but Apple requires that the developer is registered and has paid $99 for the privilege. There are web sites that explain how to get a profile for free and it may be possible but so far I have not found out how its achieved as these sites refer to version 7 of Xcode and OpenXtalk requires version 12.5 and the preferences, where profiles are created, are different.

S

You can use an iOS Emulator (I think those are actually 'built-in' to Xcode's app bundle) to test iOS builds without an Apple dev account.

A regular Apple account can be used as a Free Developer account (that's what I use) however that limits you to only signing 3 (or is it 5?) .ipa (app) packages at a time and the signature expires after 1 week. You can also use it for 'Swift Playgrounds'. Apple's 99$/year paid dev account allows you to sign like 100 apps and the signature does not expire for a year.

The provisioning file is all about Sandboxing apps. determines what access permissions your signed app might want to use, IIRC it is a .plist file. You use it while code-signing your package.

Here's one guide to manual provisioning:
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotne ... tabs=vswin

Code: Select all

To create an iOS provisioning profile, you can: 
Sign in to your Apple Developer account 
Navigate to Certificates, IDs & Profiles > Identifiers > Provisioning Profiles 
Click the + button to add a new provisioning profile 
Select App Store and click Continue 
Select the app ID you created 
Select the certificate you created 
Enter a name for the profile 
Click Generate 
Download the provisioning profile

You can also manually provision an iOS app by:
Selecting iOS App Development in the Development section
Selecting the certificates to include in the profile
Selecting the devices that will install the app 
To add a device to the iOS Team Provisioning Profile, you can:
Connect your device to your Mac
Open the Devices organizer
Select your iOS device
Click the Use for Development button 

IF you have an iDevice that you aren't using for anything important (like banking) you COULD jailbreak (or semi-jailbreak) most of iDevices fairly easily (particularly if it has an A11 or lower CPU). While your device is in a jailbroken state you can run un-signed apps, which really makes iOS app development significantly easier, as well as making an old outdated iPad useful again. Additionally that lets all sorts of emulators run (Apple only recently started to allow some emulators on the AppStore). THEN you might even be able to run an a full-blown xTalk IDE on your device. I've recently started running OXTs ancestor MetaCard v2.2 on Basilisk II (emulating a Quadra 900 Mac) on my iPad. MiniVMac II and Basilisk II are limited to emulating Moto 68K Macs and so only support up to macOS 8.1. However. if you're on iOS 15 or higher you can instead run the SheepShaver build for iOS, which can emulate a PowerPC (604) mac and run MacOS 7.6 to 9.1 and early 'classic'' versions of Runtime Revolution. All three of those emulators support IP networking (but good luck trying to find a web browsers that is even a little bit usable in 2024 beyond certain intentionally retro-sites) and and all three let you transfer files to/from you host iDevice directly from inside the emulated macOS. That means you could develop some scripts on your iPad save it as .rev file to your iCloud and then open it up from there in OXT on your desktop Mac.

Depending on your device model, and which version of iOS you're device is running, you might even be able to run much newer software (including OXT) using UTM which is based on QEMU and can emulate M68K, x86, x86_64, PPC, PPC64, an ARM (maybe even 'virtualized' if your iOS version/CPU allows for a hypervisor). UTM (via QEMU) supports running various Linux distros, Win 10 (ARM and x86_64), Win 7, Android, macOS 9.2.x (PPC), and Mac OS X (so far up to 10.5). inside the emulated environment. I'm working at getting some of that set up on my wife's old iPad (5th gen) now so that I can do some dev stuff on the go (without lugging around laptop).

https://appleinsider.com/inside/macos/t ... y-old-ones
https://mac.getutm.app

[Skids]

Thats quite a lot to be going on with. As its getting late I'll wait until tomorrow before having another attempt.
S

[Skids]

I'm still not getting any further forward. As I have not paid for an account this is what on see from the Apple Developer website when I attempt to create a certificate and provisioning profile.

AppleDevReject.jpg (76.38 KiB) Viewed 1408 times

Using Xcode I get so far with the following.

Screenshot 2024-12-13 at 08.44.33.jpg (90.38 KiB) Viewed 1408 times

The gear wheel shows

Screenshot 2024-12-13 at 08.44.54.jpg (48.39 KiB) Viewed 1408 times

I guess I'm missing the obvious.

S

[Skids]

The forum did not allow me to add more screen shots in my last post.

The Manage Certificate button opens the following pane.

Screenshot 2024-12-13 at 08.44.45.jpg (55.09 KiB) Viewed 1408 times

As a reminder all I ma trying to do is build an iOS application to run on mac silicon and this requires that the profile is set in the iOS build settings.

Screenshot 2024-12-13 at 09.06.22.png (23.52 KiB) Viewed 1408 times

I think I may just put some double A's in my Psion5 pda and do my programming on that. It was certainly much simpler.

best wishes
Simon

[tperry2x]

I think I may just put some double A's in my Psion5 pda and do my programming on that. It was certainly much simpler.

I don't blame you. I steer clear of trying to accomplish anything meaningful on Apple hardware these days. It's too locked down, and all tied up in payware / subscriptions.

[Skids]

#tperry2x

We have lost the ability to create our own programmes on the fly. Thirty plus years ago, when my wife and I were comparing mortgages, I wrote a programme on a Psion 3A that calculated the monthly payments based on interest rate and other variables along with "what ifs" such as the rate jumping to 15%. The mortgage lenders were always shocked when my calculation was within a few pence of theirs especially when they had had to refer to the back office to get their figures. Today I guess I would have to use a spreadsheet or download some unknown app.

Simon

[richmond62]

We have lost the ability to create our own programmes on the fly

That's not quite true.

Re MacOS: You can create standalones that will run, without all that stapling, nailing, hammering and so forth which work 100% on MacOS: just
do not try to get it into the App Store.

Re MacOS: you can create stacks that run everywhere just as long as you have OXT or LC installed.

iOS: frankly forget it.

[Skids]

That's not quite true.

Yes on Mac, PC and Linux but less so on the mobile devices that replaced the Psion and Palm ranges of PDA.

While Psion and Palm devices had very limited connectivity, a telephone modem in the case of the Psion, this meant that I controlled my data synchronising with other hardware to when I chose to. These days if I want to write a utility application to carry with me I have to use a desktop computer, a dedicated iOS/Android SDK and be willing to jump through hoops for the privilege.

I guess that the majority are happy with paying big bucks for a tablet and paying again for storing all their private data on some companies server farm - oh sorry "in the cloud".

Obviously I'm a Luddite

S

[richmond62]

big bucks for a tablet

NO: personally I feel that tablets are a waste of space.

I have, foolishly, bought 3 in the past, and they reminded me of a 1930 Fordson tractor I used to drive (in the 1980s!): the thing had 2 gears forward and a reverse: so pulling a harrow or a plough behind the thing was horrible: especially on a hill.

I carry a $300 laptop running Xubuntu Linux with me when I have to.

Oh, and my wife runs around with an 8 year old MacBook Air she got lobbed by one of our sons when his employer lobbed him a new one; the battery is "gef*cked", so the thing has to be plugged in (one of the many reasons I have a power inverter plugged into the cig-lighter in the car): but it is still 100 times better than a tablet.

[OpenXTalkPaul]

iOS: frankly forget it.

For iOS (iPadOS, tvOS, watchOS. etc.) Apple lets free account holders dev-sign and install a whopping (sarcasm) three apps you can side-load onto your device, you must log into their developer site (and IIRC sign an agreement) Sign Up ( hthttps://account.apple.com/account)
But you could also use KeyChain App to make your own signing certificate for ad-hoc self-signing, which I think should work fine since you aren't installing on an iDevice).

Personally I recommend jailbreaking iDevices once they're a few years old if you can and if you don't use it for anything sensitive (like don't do your banking on it) otherwise by default it will become worthless eWaste after about 5-7 years or so. With a jailbreak you can install (with dpkg using .deb format) and run as many of your self-built unsigned apps as you'd like.