OpenXTalk Forums

A definite head-case runs MetaCard 2.5 on MacOS Sonoma under WINE:

http://www.canelasoftware.com/metacard.html
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Oh, Look; there's a Paint Tools palette . . .

Oooh: that explains quite a lot as there is the 'revcolorchooser' stack in MetaCard:
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And, Wow, that's fairly ugly:
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But the MetaCard GUI/IDE/WTF has a certain charm by modularising everything.

I know that 'way back when' KM's new GUI for MetaCard (Runtime Revolution) did bring a ton of capabilities of the MetaCard 'thing' to the surface, and in that respect it was a very good thing: but, like many, many things throughout history, by improving one aspect of something some other aspects got lost.

We are not obliged to keep to the inherited front-end (although I would tend to keep fairly close to it), so we need to consider if it might be a good thing to bring back some features of the MetaCard 'thing' that have not been seen for about 24 years.

You can open the MetaCard Tools stack in OXT Lite:
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richmond62 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 7:10 am And what chance SVG export?

I've posted before a handler that converts the path strings used by various widgets like SVG Icon wrapping it with just enough SVG XML for exporting to SVG file.
I posted another handler that converts the effective points of graphics object(s) into those path strings, which can then be wrapped in just enough SVG XML to export to .svg file.
I added both of these handlers in my DPE fork of OXT, in the graphics menu and in the export button in the SVG Glyphs browser palette.

The conversion could be made to be much more elaborate though, for example instead of using the effective points of a graphic shape such as a rounded rectangle (recreating the graphic object as a polygon/points list), it could be made to create a matching round-rect SVG shape tag instead, matching the corner radius of the original and also try to match any colors or gradient fills used on the object.

However, I'm not trying to make an SVG editor out of the IDE, these handlers were added more as a convenience to help in using OXT as a basic prototyping tool while creating the vector paths to be cleaned up in a vector drawing app and then used as an SVG icon.

I'm sorry, but if I could just interject in this discussion and say I've fixed the paint tools.
(Good luck with your tools palette BTW) - Can I put in a request for a vertical 1 column layout too please?
I'm going to keep the traditional one in OXT lite, with a few tweaks for efficiency & appearance as I see fit.

Edit: done, like so:

Light mode test, with a smaller screen: ...and obviously adjusts based on what options / layout is chosen:

Excellent work!

BTW, I noticed in LC CE 9.6.3 there was a problem with the Polygon Paint Tool pop-up menu selector that lets you change that tool to various other shapes , was not changing the tool at all, then I checked OXT DPE and it works fine as expected, so somewhere along the way that got fixed. Although, it would be better if the icon changed to reflect the selected shape tool. I'm planing on have those be separate buttons in my Tools redo, might even add a shape or two (5 point star/pentagram for example.)

I have an icons for those foreColor/backColor buttons that looks more like standard paint app color select button, but I forgot to post them this morning.

The Tools Redo demo stack (Classic Controls only so far) that I've posted is already resizable in a way that you can make it a single column oriented either vertically or horizontally. I have yet to add back in the Run/Edit but I'm not sure about having those arranged vertically... I think those two could actually be combined into a single button that toggles its state/Icon, since those two tools are kind of mutually exclusive to each other (are they though? You could also be using a drawing or painting tool rather than the Browse or Edit tool).

I will try to keep that discussion to its own thread, since it's intended as a complete redesign of Tools.
Any help or suggestions for that are welcome of course.

OpenXTalkPaul wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 2:37 am Graphics drawing objects are great too, but you can't display a photograph with them. Both have their uses.

Exactly.

Image objects are very valuable.

I was referring only to the paint tools.

They're MacPaint-era in scope, out of touch with modern needs, and we have so many great image tools in the world there's no need to try to spruce up the ones in this engine.

But perhaps a good use of time might be to offer even more convenient integration been IDE workflows and image editing tools.

For example, consider how convenient it would be to select a referenced image object, type a keystroke, and the source image is opened in the editor package of your choice. When you're done editing and switch back to the IDE, the image is automatically updated.

One could even extend that for embedded images with just a little more cleverness.

FourthWorld wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 9:46 pm

OpenXTalkPaul wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 2:37 am Graphics drawing objects are great too, but you can't display a photograph with them. Both have their uses.

Exactly.

Image objects are very valuable.

I was referring only to the paint tools.

They're MacPaint-era in scope, out of touch with modern needs, and we have so many great image tools in the world there's no need to try to spruce up the ones in this engine.

There aren't any that I'm aware of that let you script your pixel panting... painting by programming.
There are some scriptable editors and image processors, but none that use xTalk to script (PhotoShop + AppleScript is probably as close as you'll find).

This reminds me... still haven't gotten around to remaking MacPaint's Brush Multiples / Brush Cemetery Painting as a stack. Someday....

FourthWorld wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 9:46 pm But perhaps a good use of time might be to offer even more convenient integration been IDE workflows and image editing tools.

For example, consider how convenient it would be to select a referenced image object, type a keystroke, and the source image is opened in the editor package of your choice. When you're done editing and switch back to the IDE, the image is automatically updated.

One could even extend that for embedded images with just a little more cleverness.

Well there's no key-combo for that, but there IS a contextual menu item that does exactly that.
I think that works ONLY for embedding the images into the stack file, but it would be good to have another option to launch a referenced image files into your editor and then update the link on resumeStack.

OpenXTalkPaul wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 8:54 pm I have an icons for those foreColor/backColor buttons that looks more like standard paint app color select button, but I forgot to post them this morning.

These are 24x24px grayscale PNG versions, with a little more to them (I have another icons that is just to overlapping squares). I haven't tested these in the tools palette yet, but they should fill with the color overlay fine. Here's a layered PSD file (2x 48x48px) if anyone wants to take a crack at it.
I'm still planing on eventually replacing all IDE images with SVG path icons.

OpenXTalkPaul wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:15 pm

FourthWorld wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 9:46 pm But perhaps a good use of time might be to offer even more convenient integration been IDE workflows and image editing tools.

For example, consider how convenient it would be to select a referenced image object, type a keystroke, and the source image is opened in the editor package of your choice. When you're done editing and switch back to the IDE, the image is automatically updated.

One could even extend that for embedded images with just a little more cleverness.

Well there's no key-combo for that, but there IS a contextual menu item that does exactly that.
I think that works ONLY for embedding the images into the stack file, but it would be good to have another option to launch a referenced image files into your editor and then update the link on resumeStack.

Wow. Never saw that before. Thanks for pointing it out.

It never would have occurred to me that there would be a feature hidden away in a context menu that isn't also in the main menu set. Pretty much every HIG I've ever read covers that. Oh well. After 25 years with an org chart that's never had a UX position, I suppose stuff like that will creep in now and then.

Where do I log the enhancement request to update that in OXT?

FourthWorld wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2024 2:29 am

OpenXTalkPaul wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:15 pm

FourthWorld wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 9:46 pm But perhaps a good use of time might be to offer even more convenient integration been IDE workflows and image editing tools.

For example, consider how convenient it would be to select a referenced image object, type a keystroke, and the source image is opened in the editor package of your choice. When you're done editing and switch back to the IDE, the image is automatically updated.

One could even extend that for embedded images with just a little more cleverness.

Well there's no key-combo for that, but there IS a contextual menu item that does exactly that.
I think that works ONLY for embedding the images into the stack file, but it would be good to have another option to launch a referenced image files into your editor and then update the link on resumeStack.

Wow. Never saw that before. Thanks for pointing it out.

It never would have occurred to me that there would be a feature hidden away in a context menu that isn't also in the main menu set. Pretty much every HIG I've ever read covers that. Oh well. After 25 years with an org chart that's never had a UX position, I suppose stuff like that will creep in now and then.

Where do I log the enhancement request to update that in OXT?

There is a setting to set your external image editor in revPreferencesUI but I suppose it isn't entirely clear how you can use it once it is set. It is rather convenient, I've used it a lot. It could be better by allowing to open multiple images simultaneously. I'd also like an 'export to image file(s)... menu item in there, or like something akin to "Collect for output" in Desktop Publishing terms.

I'd also like to implement the same sort of behavior for external script editor too, I know that MetaCard had that feature, and I believe there is still remnants of that in the SE code (there's something like a "Modified by external editing" warning dialog buried in there). I probably already use Pulsar more than the built in script editor.

You can request enhancements/bug fixes here or on GitHub (though probably better to do it here where Tom will see it too).

Two more 24px small Fill/Stroke color icons, a more simple design:

OpenXTalkPaul wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2024 3:01 am Two more 24px small Fill/Stroke color icons, a more simple design

Thank you Paul. Much appreciated. I'll use these (may adapt them slightly), but will use this type of appearance.
Edit: Yes, looks a lot better:

tperry2x wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2024 6:51 am

OpenXTalkPaul wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2024 3:01 am Two more 24px small Fill/Stroke color icons, a more simple design

Thank you Paul. Much appreciated. I'll use these (may adapt them slightly), but will use this type of appearance.
Edit: Yes, looks a lot better:
works.png

You're very welcome.
BTW, I'm currently using your version of the macOS icon theme on my tools palette and revMenuBar, so thanks for those!

I do really like having those splashes of color and depth in the UI, it sort of flys in the face of ever increasingly simplified, colorless, monotone symbolic, flat UI design.

OpenXTalkPaul wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2024 12:36 am BTW, I'm currently using your version of the macOS icon theme on my tools palette and revMenuBar, so thanks for those!

That's cool - I'm glad that they are useful

OpenXTalkPaul wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2024 12:36 am I do really like having those splashes of color and depth in the UI, it sort of flys in the face of ever increasingly simplified, colorless, monotone symbolic, flat UI design.

Me too. I really dislike the flat and colourless UI that's so prevalent these days (but then I'm old-skool).

While I'm here on this topic, did anyone else notice the graphics tools are also broken in LCC 9.6.3, so subsequently OXT too. (demo of them not working as expected in LCC 9.6.3)

I've also fixed this today in OXT Lite 1.04.

did anyone else notice the graphics tools are also broken in LCC 9.6.3

No, I didn't as I have always used the drop-down menu from the menubar to get vector shapes and then mucked them around via a preference palette.

Big Kudos/Karma/Mojo to you that you spotted that!

I wonder if LiveCode is aware of that (or, at least their user-base)?

I've also fixed this today in OXT Lite 1.04.

Given the large number of changes/improvements/sortings-out that you have implemented in your up-coming version I would expect it
to be called 1.1 to indicate just that, and not 1.04.

richmond62 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 28, 2024 4:08 pm https://stackoverflow.com/questions/678 ... n-livecode

Ah, that's funny. (2021)

Oh well, it's nice to have the bug verified that exists in multiple places.
I solved it the same way - my fixed version creates a new image object first (as if you'd dragged it in from the tools palette) and then starts painting on it. (Doing the same thing, but automatically) - and it also moves it to the back at the same time, so you also don't obscure any buttons / fields or whatever that might be on the card.

They don't mention that the 'graphics tools' (as well as the 'paint tools') were broken, but I suppose they hadn't discovered that.
Anyway, both fixed in OXT Lite 1.04 for what it's worth. I ended up rewriting most of the revTools stack because a lot of it was just not logical (well, at least not to me - but everyone scripts/codes in their own style).

Makes me wonder if there's anything else 'lurking' that I need to add to here.

I think we can definitely add the thing today about large image-intensive standalones possibly failing to display lots of embedded images (at least on MacOS).

Working on Tools palette redo this weekend I discovered a bug with the 'Line' graphic shape tool, after you draw a Line object it seems that the IDE selects / changes to rectangle tool, unless you click the graphic line-tool button again, then you can draw another line as expected.