Conceptual Divergence

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richmond62
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Conceptual Divergence

Post by richmond62 »

This is very interesting:

"This is a conceptual change which has not yet been explained, the reason it has not been explained is that it’s not yet been fully implemented. In LiveCode Create for brand new users we are removing the requirement of learning the stacks and cards metaphor. It’s worth noting here that stacks and cards will continue to be supported as they are now, it will just no longer be the default experience for a new user. We see this as a potential friction point when a user has to pause and ask, what is a stack and what is a card and we believe it not to be important enough a concept to take forward into the future as our default option in LiveCode Create.

"In LiveCode Create the user can create a new project and inside that project they can have multiple layouts (terminology, not 100% finalised). Internally a layout is essentially a stack with a single card (but behaves as a single object). So from a user perspective in the project browser they will not see a stack and a card, they will just see a single object which will be called a Layout. It is this Layout where they will drag their widgets onto."

(emphasis is mine)

https://livecode.com/livecode-create-pr ... -and-more/
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tperry2x
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Re: Conceptual Divergence

Post by tperry2x »

Well, it does certainly mark a divergence between our project and theirs.
Personally, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the card and stack methodology and concept.
But it just reaffirms why I'm here trying to contribute, and not on another forum.
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Re: Conceptual Divergence

Post by richmond62 »

another forum
Oddly enough that is not (as in NOT) mentioned anywhere on 'another forum', I just happened on it faffing around looking at the LC Blog thing . . . sometimes that sort of 'faffing around' yields things that are quite interesting to reflect on.

I do feel that there is a slight bit of being economical with the truth . . .
It’s worth noting here that stacks and cards will continue to be supported as they are now, it will just no longer be the default experience for a new user.
Which, reading what someone might be saying with their fingers crossed behind their back, means that CARDS have had their day, and LC will be moving further and further away from the metaphor we (well, at least I) 'know and love so well'.

They are being strangely reticent about aspects of what is, if it comes to fruition, going to transform the IDE and other aspects of LC out of all recognition.

Had LC not dumped their Open Source thing at version 9.6.3, and hung onto it for a few more years it is possible (especially with the slow, apparent, death of SuperCard) the Stacks & Cards metaphor would have been completely lost, which would have been a very great pity indeed.
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tperry2x
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Re: Conceptual Divergence

Post by tperry2x »

Oh, I didn't necessarily mean that forum (the ex-mothership as we refer to it).
No, what I meant is - for all the complaining I do / feel like doing - OXT remains the quickest way I know of to get something useable on Linux, Windows and MacOS with some semblance of similarity. Because of that, and my interest in keeping an xTalk language going, that's why I'm not over on a Python forum or a Godot forum - trying to turn Python or Godot into my own version of xTalk.

I do wonder if LC / LC Create is moving toward an IDE where you won't be able to get at the code, and it'll all be drag-and-drop from some kind of AI dataset. At this point, as I've mentioned before, what they do is entirely their decision of course. What we can do is steer our version in the direction we want as there are clearly very different approaches & mindsets between the two now. I certainly think we won't have to worry about the two being confused with eachother.
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Re: Conceptual Divergence

Post by richmond62 »

What we can do is steer our version in the direction we want as there are clearly very different approaches & mindsets between the two now.
Indeed: I just wish there was a way to effectively 'shout' all over the internet about our approach and mindset.
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tperry2x
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Re: Conceptual Divergence

Post by tperry2x »

richmond62 wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 7:58 pm I just wish there was a way to effectively 'shout' all over the internet about our approach and mindset.
Image
:lol: How could I not mention that, ;) You led me straight to that one.

I hear it's very popular with the young-uns'

We probably need someone making videos who doesn't have a norfolk accent though as people would probably come away more confused than when they started if I made any demos.
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Re: Conceptual Divergence

Post by OpenXTalkPaul »

I would think this would be an entirely superficial change.

I mean does it really matter if you call it a "project file" or a stack...or like some others things have called it a movie (Lingo), a form (pascal), a (tool-)book, NSWindow (AppKit) etc.? Or whether you refer to a particular defined view within that project as a 'card', or a 'layout', or a page, NSview, etc.? They' all have essentially the same meanings, right?

I imagine that they want to use terms like 'layout' instead of 'card' because it doesn't require explanation of any history. It's probably a decision based on the idea that kids today don't even know what an 'index card' or 'card-catalog' are, so the Card'/Stack terms conjure no visual image in their minds and the metaphor is lost, and also requires the origin of those terms to be explained. Possibly also because apps have become more single-window/fullscreen-UI oriented and so maybe the metaphor does sit well with that? I don't know, you have to call them something and 'layout' is a generic as can be I suppose.

Personally, I'm comfortable with Card/Stack metaphor and I think new-users should have to get on board with that.
xTalk has a long history where Card/Stack is the prevailing metaphor and we aren't doing JavaScript or Swift or whatever here, we're doing xTalk/xCard, so I plan to stick with that metaphor.

(most) People aren't (that) stupid, even if they have to look up what an 'index card' is, most people will get the idea that 'card' is equivalent to an individual UI layout within a larger window (stack) frame fairly quickly I think.

The engine already does allow for interchangeable use of the work 'stack' or 'window' to refer to the same thing (though in my opinion it should not).
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Re: Conceptual Divergence

Post by OpenXTalkPaul »

tperry2x wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 8:11 pm We probably need someone making videos who doesn't have a norfolk accent though as people would probably come away more confused than when they started if I made any demos.
My son sometimes will watch videos where the poster used Text-To-Speech to narrate the video, that might be a workable idea for people with thick accents. Most people don't like to hear the sound of their own voice played back, I know I don't. But as long as the relevant information gets across somehow that's what matters, and a picture (or 30 per second) is worth a thousand words (Emojis are worth one or two as well ;-) ).
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Re: Conceptual Divergence

Post by OpenXTalkPaul »

OpenXTalkPaul wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 9:26 pm Possibly also because
...Still thinking about the possible reasonings for this change, which I think had better be worth the effort because a lot of existing documentation would have to be edited or rewritten just to distance the thing from the card/stack metaphor, and its a metaphor with historically significance and recognition among a (perhaps dwindling) existing user base.

'Stack' in modern programming terms is probably most often used to describe the amount of 'backend' you're dealing with, as in: 'I'm a Full Stack Developer with xx years of experience yada yada'. So that could be confusing to some people I guess.
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Re: Conceptual Divergence

Post by tperry2x »

OpenXTalkPaul wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 9:39 pm My son sometimes will watch videos where the poster used Text-To-Speech to narrate the video, that might be a workable idea for people with thick accents.
Duh. But you are right. Unfortunately, the norfolk accent can sound a bit of a 'thick' accent. :D

Those text-to-speech voices, I find really annoying. My 10 year old watches a lot of youtube and even she will swipe for the next video as soon as she hears that.
Perhaps I'll put a video together when I have time. Probably worth covering the basics first, and probably worth pointing out that the IDE may well change over time as it's continuously evolving. Let's keep the cards & stacks though!
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Re: Conceptual Divergence

Post by richmond62 »

Whether an accent is 'thick' or not is highly subjective.

I went, from 13-18 to a posh private school in England (which, on the whole, I did not enjoy), and, inevitably left with a posh accent which managed to rub quite a few folk up the wrong way without any effort on my part, then, what with quite lengthy periods in Durham, Orkney, Fife, Illinois, and outwith those parts where people fondly imagine they speak 'English' (a homogenous language), my accent fluctuates from the one I use in my ESL school, the one I use at home, and so on.

The only accents that seriously sandpaper my head are the Northern Irish one (when they are not speaking Ullans), and the one from round Catford way in London.

What I do find far, far more difficult is the use of dialectal terms (in fact it makes me gradely unco).

So, be your accent (note nice use of subjunctive there) Norfolk or New Jersey, as long as your vocab is fairly standard I would not get fussed about things: if people are so snobby or prickly that your accent bothers them, then, well, they can go and pay for a LiveCode licence. 8-)

And, while we are here, I have never managed to place Kevin Miller's accent, which, in spite of the fact that he went to High School in Edinburgh, is most definitely not a Scots accent.
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Re: Conceptual Divergence

Post by TerryL »

I'm working on a text-to-speech narrator button for the first lesson on my basic intro stack "Quick Start". Should be ready next week. I'll post it for comments. The Windows male voice isn't bad. Someone else would have to make the you-tube video. Terry
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Re: Conceptual Divergence

Post by FourthWorld »

Even back in the day, SuperCard used "windows" for "stacks", and "project" for "stackfile". Toolbook used "page" for "card".

Today "stack" is most commonly used for tech layers comprising a system, and "cards" refer to UI panes within a layout.

If the card-and-stack metaphor had legs the world would have followed HC's lead.

The invisible hand of the free market has spoken. Swimming upstream is exhausting. Onward...
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Re: Conceptual Divergence

Post by richmond62 »

The invisible hand of the free market has spoken.
Well, it is a revelation to me that certain people do listen to the "free market" opinion.

As OXT & OXT Lite as open source software packages do not have to listen to whatever the 'voice' of the free market might be they can continue having the Stacks and Cards metaphor.
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Re: Conceptual Divergence

Post by TerryL »

Here's Quick Start with a text-to-speech button/field for the first lesson. Shift-click button "Narrator" to toggle the text field visible to edit. It speaks one line at a time (using a custom property) to allow for slow mouse cursor movements while filming. I timed the lesson at about 5:30. I recommend making the video with a non-distracting white background in light-mode. Try a few different voices, Microsoft David sounds good on Windows.

These are simple basic never-coded-before lessons. Constructive criticism is better now than from a very public YouTube. Would something like this attract new users to OpenXTalk Lite? Maybe prefer something more advanced to present first? Terry
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Re: Conceptual Divergence

Post by FourthWorld »

richmond62 wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 5:34 pm As OXT & OXT Lite as open source software packages do not have to listen to whatever the 'voice' of the free market might be they can continue having the Stacks and Cards metaphor.
Exactly. Just as even other xTalk vendors have done for decades, OXT is free to use whatever terminology project leaders want. What other projects do is unimportant here.
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Re: Conceptual Divergence

Post by OpenXTalkPaul »

I think 'cards' in the usage Richard mentioned, a card being part of a larger graphical layout, has close enough meaning to our usage with xCard thing that I think that shouldn't confuse people much, a card is a sub-layout within a Stack's larger structure (window area).

But again it really doesn't matter to me what these are called, so long as it works the same way.

I do think I felt instantly more comfortable when I first checked out LiveCode, then of the times I ever tried SuperCard or other alternative xTalks without 'card/stack'. The card/stack metaphor just feels like 'being home' to me, so I'm 100% in favor of sticking with it, invisible market hand be damned.
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Re: Conceptual Divergence

Post by OpenXTalkPaul »

TerryL wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 8:08 pm These are simple basic never-coded-before lessons. Constructive criticism is better now than from a very public YouTube.
Thanks Terry, I'll check it out tonight.
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Re: Conceptual Divergence

Post by TerryL »

I've finished the text-to-speech for all six lessons, and updated some text and code. Now we need a volunteer to make a high-quality video of lesson 1 to eventually appear on YouTube. I suggest non-distracting white background in light mode, steady camera (on tripod?), slow deliberate mouse cursor movements, clean sound. Subsequent lessons could be on different platforms, and in dark mode. Terry
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Re: Conceptual Divergence

Post by FourthWorld »

OpenXTalkPaul wrote: Thu May 16, 2024 12:52 am I think 'cards' in the usage Richard mentioned, a card being part of a larger graphical layout, has close enough meaning to our usage with xCard thing that I think that shouldn't confuse people much, a card is a sub-layout within a Stack's larger structure (window area).
21st century cards are more like xTalk groups.

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