The state of desktop OS

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tperry2x
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The state of desktop OS

Post by tperry2x »

richmond62 wrote: Mon Nov 18, 2024 9:39 am ...but the point I was trying to make was that when Apple suddenly go "Yabba-Dabba-do; MacOS 69", that is NOT really anything except one thing in a long line of beta versions stretching all the way back to MacOS 10.0; and the numbers (and the slightly silly names) are just a way for them to manipulate the market so you rush out and buy a Macintosh machine with an ARM 57 processor and chuck your one with an ARM 56 processor in a landfill (Please bear in mind all the 'yakkety-yak' from Apple about the environment).
...
The simple fact that I can run the latest Debian system on my Dad's 20 year old, 32-bit, steam-driven laptop gives the lie to the need to endlessly upgrade.
Totally agreed. A good example is as of next year - anyone on Windows 10 will stop receiving security updates. (unless they pay Microsoft for 'extended support', but even that is temporary. According to this, it's 60.95% of the worldwide PC market (as I type this). I'd assume that's fairly accurate based on Microsoft's telemetry reporting.

There are millions (upon millions?) of computers out there that won't actually update to Windows 11 (because Microsoft have specified you need to have a TPM chip on the motherboard).. because security... (highly doubtful this is the panacea Microsoft make it out to be, but anyway...), Windows 11 won't install.

(Yes, you can registry hack it - but subsequent updates mean you need to keep doing that).

This means there are going to be huge numbers of PCs going to landfill soon.
The shame is, any of those could run (and should be running) Linux as it'll keep them out of landfill and updated.

But it's all about buy buy buy, and people always want new - despite 'talking the talk' about the environment.
Together with IT departments across countless sections of industry, and bosses who can only think in the windows-paradigm - they'll not want to waste money on supporting older Windows 10 devices for a limited time. As Windows is 'the industry standard' (I really hate that phrase), nobody is likely going to spend the time to get an unknown Linux solution in place when they can't justify the time spent upon it as a valid business decision.

Apple are notorious for the same hardware turnover and software obsolescence. They'd claim that all rare-earth metals are shredded and reclaimed, however there are countless plastic cases, peripherals and things that can't be reused - all in landfill. Normally destined for China for disassembly and then ultimately India for landfill. Saying you support a device up to 5 years is not much good when you consider how large Apple is and the sheer volume of hardware turnover they go through.
A great example was this earlier post. Apple spend all that time and effort (even creating bespoke manufacturing processes for one type of machine), essentially making a piece of hardware jewellery, which is now only good as a stylised kitchen bin.

So although software is continuously being updated / upgraded - It's generally getting more and more sluggish, and requiring more and more demands of hardware.

There's little to not enough focus on optimisation of operating systems - sometimes there comes a point where you need to cut everything back and start again, otherwise it's just more code heaped on top of old dead code.

We have this a bit (a lot?) in the IDE of OXT and also in the engine.
One day.... one day, perhaps I'll finish writing my lexxer-passer-interpreter for a streamlined version. But I think I'll be in my 70's before that gets near to what even LCC 7 could do. By which point the use case for it will probably have ended - nobody will have any desire to use it when you can just ask your computer directly to do anything you want.

What we continue to see, and have seen in the past, with languages fading out of existence and being forgotten will happen with xTalk. Everything will likely be a cloud-driven AI, and over time as it gets better and better, that'll likely be able to produce anything you care to mention. (it's in it's infancy now, but given another 10-15 years - I'm sure it'll be the default location for your entire overseen, monitored and managed operating system).

It'll no doubt be under a subscription model too, so you'll have to pay monthly to use your computer. Unless (and I count myself among this number) you don't want to follow that trend at all, but my 'old-skool' approach will ultimately be frowned upon by people who know no differently and just accept the subscription model as the norm.

That approach of running your own computer 'on-premise' rather than cloud-based will be scorned and people likely being labelled 'out of touch' or 'tech dinosaurs' - the same as using an iPod with music you own on CD, copied to it. Rather than just logging into spotify and playing what is available in the cloud on spotify's servers instead.
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Re: The state of desktop OS

Post by tperry2x »

I've actually managed to go off-topic twice in one post above, must be some kind of record for me :lol:
Just having a rant I suppose, even though I'm powerless to do anything about the way the computer industry is likely headed.
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Re: The state of desktop OS

Post by richmond62 »

Well, well:
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That's what I bought last year to save the programs I write on my BBC Micro model B. 8-)
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Re: The state of desktop OS

Post by richmond62 »

Recently I have been fooling around with a Pentium I with FreeDOS and the OpenGEM GUI:
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https://www.opendawn.com/opengem/

It is really rather nice.
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Re: The state of desktop OS

Post by tperry2x »

Yes, and occasionally I'll boot up MacOS 7.5 or 8.0 in QEmu or Sheepshaver. Even MacOS 10.4 "Tiger".
I can't help feeling where did it all go so badly wrong. Why is the OS so absolutely overblown and bloated. It now tries to do everything, especially on MacOS, when all it really needs to be is a bare bones desktop and file manager. All the other stuff is completely superfluous eye candy. Yes, if you want all that, then have it as separate apps/programs that can be installed or uninstalled as needed. Don't embed it or make it part of the underlying OS.
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Re: The state of desktop OS

Post by overclockedmind »

Assuming machines that don't natively run Windows 10 come into availability, there may be some acquisitions on my part.

And they'd be running Linux, of course. I don't mean to profit from other people's misfortune... I mean to use.

Meanwhile, my Uncle Rick is in his 60s, knows nothing about computers... and is running ChromeOS Flex. I've already informed him that he's running Linux, that there's a whole world of free software out there (VLC, he uses it) and he's better off in that protected environment.

I kinda wish we had a more "xTalk kind of xTalk," meaning HyperTalk. But that's just a personal wish... set the this of that to quantity. I know, some stacks "just go" that way, and some don't, and HyperTalk didn't conceive of things that exist now... just thoughts.

And the bloat? Oh PLEASE put it under "Additional Software" on every available operating system.

Who's ranting now? :lol:
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Re: The state of desktop OS

Post by tperry2x »

Haha, rant away.
I think it would be perfectly possible to build a command-line xtalk interpreter in C++ and probably have that under 5MB. This could just be included as a command line in /usr/bin and shown in the development menu as you say.

Like my message-box C++ test, there could be a simple GUI window where you can test out xTalk scripts too.
That would make the language available to everyone running linux, via a package manager.

While perfectly possible, the time consuming part is sitting there making the hypertalk parser aware of all the various keywords and functions, and getting it to process (tokenise) it all in the right order (so it makes sense to the user typing it, and so it makes sense to the interpreter... interpreting it) :D

Doing so would make the logic of purchasing any commercial product questionable, because as soon as that's in the mainstream repos - other people (skilled C++ coders - not novices like myself) - and the linux community which is absolutely huge (and growing), can really take it and expand upon it.
Where you find serious programmers, you find Linux users.
I wouldn't want to put my serious face on. Why so serious? :twisted:

The fact that this already partially exists, in the form of OpenXion, (download | website) - but if it were included in Repos - I think it'd see much more popularity. I'm hoping Rebecca can find time to release this as a C++ program rather than java, and I've messaged her (many) times - not meaning to nag her, but really hoping that a new version is on the horizon.

It has been 10 years since the last update was posted, and while I want to remain optimistic....
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Re: The state of desktop OS

Post by tperry2x »

Anyway, getting back to what I was on about because I always drift off topic - without fail :lol:
The state of desktop OS aren't problems that are just confined to MacOS and Windows - Linus Torvalds shares some interesting thoughts on why we aren't seeing Linux on every desktop yet. As he says, "it's been 25 years so far, so it's likely to be a few more years yet" :D

Bear in mind, that was 5 years ago - and we aren't really much further forward in that regard now.
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Re: The state of desktop OS

Post by richmond62 »

I don't think it would be healthy to see Linux on every desktop.

What would be healthy is if Linux would somehow result in more competitive pressure on Apple and Microsoft.

I also wish Haiku OS would both speed up, and come more into the public eye.

The Microsoft-Apple duopoly is extremely unhealthy.
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Re: The state of desktop OS

Post by richmond62 »

And while people who use 'computer-like-things' for watching goofy TikTok nonsense, writing "I have just wiped my bum" on AntiSocial Media, and so forth may be migrating to mobile platforms rather like 'sheep' in the 1970s listened to Punk Rock even though most of it was utter crap; because they follow fashion-cum-commercial-push: just walk into an office or a factory and you will see desktop computers (even if they manifest themselves as laptops) all over the place.

I somehow cannot see an accountant doing company spreadsheets on a Samsung Galaxy!

People in Science labs use desktop computers.

[I am in no way linked to Samsung, although I do own a Samsung Galaxy mobile phone which I keep in my anorak pocket 98% of the time.] 8-)

So, abandoning the desktop computer slice of the market is just a case of missing something.
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I do wonder if getting OXT to work on UNIX (i.e. NOT Linux), Haiku OS, and a few other desktop systems (RiscOS 5, RiscOS Select . . . ?) might not be a good thing in the long run.
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Re: The state of desktop OS

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richmond62 wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2024 1:05 pm I somehow cannot see an accountant doing company spreadsheets on a Samsung Galaxy!
So, abandoning the desktop computer slice of the market is just a case of missing something.
I should clarify, my experiments at running stuff in a browser isn't because I want to target the mobile OS users necessarily.
More on this further down though re Android.
The web stuff I'm trying is because most stuff seems to be a web-app. Using the accountant analogy above, they might not be using a samsung galaxy (although could be, as you can dock those to a monitor, mirror the screen) & with a wireless keyboard on your desk - you have an instant laptop / desktop with big display.

Office365 has web-app versions, and it's rare to not find something that comes in web-app form. Just thinking about my work, and what my Mrs does - it's rare not to find ourselves in the web version of office.
I look at my 11 year old doing homework, Google Docs (a web-app word processor).

(The accountant mentioned above just needs a browser) Doesn't matter really what is running the browser these days, as long as it can cope with the demands the web gives it.

Even the smart-speaker that we've just set up for a member of staff - there's no software to install to configure it. You plug it into the network and you visit a web UI in a browser to configure it (even connecting it to wifi and setting up trusted connected devices - all done through the web back-end).

Network switches, servers, firewalls - all through a web UI.

Although I've been testing building for iOS, that's only because I'm interested in seeing if the iOS app would run on an MacOS Arm desktop once created, like a native program. Everything I've read says it should. If we are wanting to keep supporting desktop MacOS (and I'm guessing we are), this seems to be the only way we have in the pipeline of running anything approaching an arm version on mac hardware.

If on the other hand, we go web-UI based one day, I'm more interested in 'keeping it local' or rather - having the ability to keep it local. So if it's something that renders in a web page - it can all be called in from a folder saved on the computer. I also didn't want there to be any dependencies (something I don't like about the current IDE on Linux) where you have to have loads of extra libraries and dependencies to have to load in. (to get Video working for example)

If it's all through a browser, that's your do-everything-engine. No special plugins required if it's Javascript and HTML.

With the Android APK building, I'm primarily only concerned with building an OXT dictionary. Since you can get huge android tablets these days, screen size can be as large as a decent laptop.

Yes, I have lots of irons in the fire, but I'm just coming up with ideas and possible directions we can take. I like Paul's OXT Playground (so much so I don't want to risk messing it up) - I also don't want Paul to have to sort through a load of my 'commits' (? is that the right word) that might well be pure junk. It's all time spent sorting out a potential mess when free time is precious.
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Re: The state of desktop OS

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richmond62 wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2024 1:05 pm I do wonder if getting OXT to work on UNIX (i.e. NOT Linux), Haiku OS, and a few other desktop systems (RiscOS 5, RiscOS Select . . . ?) might not be a good thing in the long run.
Unix is not Linux, as you know, yet LC have continuously mixed up this terminology throughout the LCC IDE and the documentation. There isn't anything in the source that would indicate it can be compiled for unix at all.
Unless this is also undocumented somewhere (quite possible I suppose :roll: )

Unless of course it's possible to adapt the MacOS BSD Unix source into some kind of generic UNIX variant? It's not as simple as that though as you'd have to write all the 3rd-party dependencies and libraries for UNIX that the engine pulls in at compile stage. That's probably a harder task than migrating from intel Mac builds over to Arm.

Plus Haiku isn't Unix either. Nor is it Linux. Haiku is Haiku - it's a totally unique animal.
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Re: The state of desktop OS

Post by tperry2x »

But this wasn't really a post about the state of OXT on desktop OS, which is why it's "Off Topic". It's more about me reflecting on where desktop OS is headed and the state of desktop UI's trying to be mobile UI's.
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Re: The state of desktop OS

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First off... OpenXION is indeed cool. But why not get something out to the repos, that isn't based on Java? Surely once Many Hands got to it...

I may have missed the answer somewhere, in another post, as I know it's been discussed before.

Secondly, yes, we need to be able to interface with the Web. If nothing else, then someone could make a browser.

Or they could make an Actual Thing, and the software to work with it.

There is "more than just the desktop/laptop" these days, too. And for some people, those are the right things for the job. Tablets and phones... some tablets do some very serious work (like run a web browser to interface with a database.)

...

It all goes round and round at times, doesn't it? :lol:
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Re: The state of desktop OS

Post by OpenXTalkPaul »

tperry2x wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2024 8:52 am The fact that this already partially exists, in the form of OpenXion, (download | website) - but if it were included in Repos - I think it'd see much more popularity. I'm hoping Rebecca can find time to release this as a C++ program rather than java, and I've messaged her (many) times - not meaning to nag her, but really hoping that a new version is on the horizon.

It has been 10 years since the last update was posted, and while I want to remain optimistic....

openxion.png
I know she mentioned in the docs somewhere that she intended to re-write it in C++, but I actually really appreciate the fact that she wrote OpenXION in JAVA, I've run it on JVMs versions that are much newer than when the bulk of that development stopped. I think it should still be usable as long as there's a JVM to run it on. Since JAVA is still one of the top programming languages, that could be a very long time.

If nothing else it is a damn good proof of concept, and adding some basic GUI elements to it can be done, and I have the proof of concept scripts for that (using UI from AppleScript, and Tinker UI via Python).

I don't want to knock the learning experience benefit of rolling your own and having a more liberally licensed interpreter, but we DO already have command line xTalk interpreter that's written in C++, it's the engine (run without UI) or 'Server' version of the engine, although as we all know those have a GPLv3 license attached to it.

I think it would be cool to have a xTalk-Linux Distro Spin, where OXT and OpenXION come pre-installed and it has a tested-OXT-compatible Window Manger as the default. Maybe with Sheepshaver or Basilisk II (MacOS classic emulators) set up with a disk image that has some historical xTalks installed (HyperCard, SuperCard, Director w/LINGO, Oracle Media Objects, Dan's SERF beta, etc.)
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Re: The state of desktop OS

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OpenXTalkPaul wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2024 9:10 pm
tperry2x wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2024 8:52 am The fact that this already partially exists, in the form of OpenXion, (download | website) - but if it were included in Repos - I think it'd see much more popularity. I'm hoping Rebecca can find time to release this as a C++ program rather than java, and I've messaged her (many) times - not meaning to nag her, but really hoping that a new version is on the horizon.

It has been 10 years since the last update was posted, and while I want to remain optimistic....

openxion.png
I know she mentioned in the docs somewhere that she intended to re-write it in C++, but I actually really appreciate the fact that she wrote OpenXION in JAVA, I've run it on JVMs versions that are much newer than when the bulk of that development stopped. I think it should still be usable as long as there's a JVM to run it on. Since JAVA is still one of the top programming languages, that could be a very long time.

If nothing else it is a damn good proof of concept, and adding some basic GUI elements to it can be done, and I have the proof of concept scripts for that (using UI from AppleScript, and Tinker UI via Python).

I don't want to knock the learning experience benefit of rolling your own and having a more liberally licensed interpreter, but we DO already have command line xTalk interpreter that's written in C++, it's the engine (run without UI) or 'Server' version of the engine, although as we all know those have a GPLv3 license attached to it.

I think it would be cool to have a xTalk-Linux Distro Spin, where OXT and OpenXION come pre-installed and it has a tested-OXT-compatible Window Manger as the default. Maybe with Sheepshaver or Basilisk II (MacOS classic emulators) set up with a disk image that has some historical xTalks installed (HyperCard, SuperCard, Director w/LINGO, Oracle Media Objects, Dan's SERF beta, etc.)
How does one run the engine in this manner? Am I missing something? (Quite possibly...) I obviously know how to go the other direction, insofar as making a project run terminal commands, just not "backward," if you will.

It's possible I just haven't messed with the Server version enough to know what I am missing.

Edit: More like probable, I'll do some looking. But the last time the Server version crossed my mind, it was before OpenXTalk!
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Re: The state of desktop OS

Post by OpenXTalkPaul »

overclockedmind wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2024 11:07 pm How does one run the engine in this manner? Am I missing something? (Quite possibly...) I obviously know how to go the other direction, insofar as making a project run terminal commands, just not "backward," if you will.

It's possible I just haven't messed with the Server version enough to know what I am missing.

Edit: More like probable, I'll do some looking. But the last time the Server version crossed my mind, it was before OpenXTalk!
1) The Server version of the Engine is a command line app.

2) The engine or main executable binary of a standalone app can run be without GUI from command line and using the switch:
-ui

There's also the getopt library that comes with the IDE (search the dictionary for GetOpt https://openxtalk-org.github.io/OpenXTa ... ictionary/ ) which is meant to help with parsing command line args.
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Re: The state of desktop OS

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OpenXTalkPaul wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 1:17 am
overclockedmind wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2024 11:07 pm How does one run the engine in this manner? Am I missing something? (Quite possibly...) I obviously know how to go the other direction, insofar as making a project run terminal commands, just not "backward," if you will.

It's possible I just haven't messed with the Server version enough to know what I am missing.

Edit: More like probable, I'll do some looking. But the last time the Server version crossed my mind, it was before OpenXTalk!
1) The Server version of the Engine is a command line app.

2) The engine or main executable binary of a standalone app can run be without GUI from command line and using the switch:
-ui

There's also the getopt library that comes with the IDE (search the dictionary for GetOpt https://openxtalk-org.github.io/OpenXTa ... ictionary/ ) which is meant to help with parsing command line args.
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Re: The state of desktop OS

Post by OpenXTalkPaul »

overclockedmind wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 3:11 am
1) The Server version of the Engine is a command line app.

2) The engine or main executable binary of a standalone app can run be without GUI from command line and using the switch:
-ui

There's also the getopt library that comes with the IDE (search the dictionary for GetOpt https://openxtalk-org.github.io/OpenXTa ... ictionary/ ) which is meant to help with parsing command line args.
Just found what I'm going to be doing for a good, long while! Thank you, Paul.
Have fun!

Oh and If you like writing command line xTalk scripts, I really enjoyed playing with OpenXION which is a GUI-less xTalk interpreter (dialect is called XION) that runs on top of Java (and so is very much cross platform). OpenXION can run interactive, load and execute script files of type xn ( myscript.xn ). The dialect is a bit different than OXT, more limited comparatively, but it does supports some 'advanced' things (such as Arrays), and can call other scripting languages: Python (if installed on the host system), AppleScript (only macOS), Visual Basic Scripts (only on Win), and Shell/Bash scripts, using standard xTalk 'do tMyScript as [scriptLanguage]' syntax.
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Re: The state of desktop OS

Post by richmond62 »

I think it would be cool to have a xTalk-Linux Distro Spin
This has happened before; unfortunately Andre Garzia's web ref. has gone the way of all flesh.

https://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use- ... 34237.html

It might not be a bad idea to contact him and see if you can get hold of that for an initial "fool around".

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