OpenXTalk Forums

I wonder why some of us bother to check over here at all?

After all, a debranded version was made available with a few blips: and the blips were not sorted out because of getting distracted by 1000 extra features that no-one requested,

One feature ONLY is 100% needed:
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Standalones to run on Macintosh ARM processors.

Why am I wasting my time even mentioning this?

richmond62 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 6:03 pm Why am I wasting my time even mentioning this?

If you're bringing neither C++ engineering talent nor the funding to hire any, good question.

Is there any indications of what speed gains there is on ARM for Livecode?

Mic

The answer to that is to download a Trial version of LC, build a Mac Intel standalone, and then build an ARM standalone [they have to be done separately, otherwise you end up with a hybrid standalone], then try each on the relevant platform.

"Oh, dear, oh, dear; I have already had a trial version last month and LC won't allow me another."

Funny that a person "I know" has had 8 free, disposable email addresses over the last 2 years . . .

FourthWorld wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2023 12:11 am

richmond62 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 6:03 pm Why am I wasting my time even mentioning this?

If you're bringing neither C++ engineering talent nor the funding to hire any, good question.

If it's needed, then it needs mentioning regardless of what other people are bringing.

If it's needed, then it needs mentioning regardless of what other people are bringing.

Over on "the other side" I was criticised for using the word 'sententious', but, Hey, Fourthworld's comments over here continue as sententiously as ever in a really rather unhelpful way . . .

. . . Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Sarasvati on a chopper, a foundation backed by millions of squidulicks: give me a break and "beam me up Scotty."
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Wow! 2 more reasons why A.I. stinks:

1. Knows naff-all about Hindu gods and goddesses.

2. Knows naff-all about bikes straight out of 'Easy Rider'.

richmond62 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2023 6:20 pm Over on "the other side" I was criticised for using the word 'sententious', but, Hey, Fourthworld's comments over here continue as sententiously as ever in a really rather unhelpful way . . .

Depends on one's goals.

If you want engineering done, focusing on ways to bring engineering talent on board is useful.

micmac wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2023 6:26 am Is there any indications of what speed gains there is on ARM for Livecode?

I haven't done benchmarking, but you can notice the difference. It's perky. Very perky. Apple did a good job with that architecture.

The bigger issue isn't the speed bump, but being able to run OpenXTalk at all.

With each of the architectural shifts Apple has done over the years (68k to PPC, Classic to OS X, PPC to Intel, 32bit to 64bit, Intel to M1), they provide a bridging layer to give app devs and the customers who rely on those apps a few years before the older architecture is completely unsupported.

We're now a couple years into the ARM transition. I'd guess we have about 24 months left to run Intel apps on a Mac, maybe 36 months tops.

Apple rarely (never?) lets their customers know exactly when legacy systems become fully deprecated, so it's all a guessing game until the day they pull the plug.

richmond62 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 6:03 pm I wonder why some of us bother to check over here at all?

After all, a debranded version was made available with a few blips: and the blips were not sorted out because of getting distracted by 1000 extra features that no-one requested,

I am no-one and I'm also my best customer.

And actually I've had a fair bit of interest in my work on various extensions from various people contacting me about MIDI or Bluetooth, USB stuff, etc. and there's other projects I'm interested in that I haven't worked on because I'm currently still working on this IDE only because I want to.

"One feature ONLY is 100% needed" / "Macintosh ARM processors."

No, it's not, what about Win 11 Arm or Linux ARM? Or What about supporting building standalone with newer SDKs for Mobile? There's LOTs and LOTs of things that are needed.

Why are you wasting time mentioning it? I don't know. I don't yet have an AppleSilicon based Mac to build / test properly on that architecture and I'm not sure when I'll get one (but I probably will get one eventually). So if you want that to happen sooner than later, you should either get to working on that problem, or just subscribe to LiveCode Ltd. service for thier supported product that already has some AppleSilicon supporting builds.

AppleSilicon is a bit like a SoC setup, it's snappier in part because everything is smashed together real close and sharing resources (cpu/gpu shared memory). The thing I don't like about them is that everything is soldered on / non-upgradable. Did they come out with a AppleSilicon MacPro with 8 ram sockets like the old MacPros did? Not likely.

OpenXTalkPaul wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 8:07 am I don't yet have an AppleSilicon based Mac to build / test properly on that architecture ... The thing I don't like about them is that everything is soldered on / non-upgradable.

This is exactly my point, but it's what is happening across the entire computer industry (and has been for quite some time). Everything is deemed 'non-replaceable' or 'non-upgradable' and is soldiered on to never be removed again.

(Unless you look at Framework laptops, where everything is designed to be replaced)

Plus, Apple being Apple - they have the T2 security chips, which detect and prevent swapping of any hardware they deem non-apple.
Also, Apple being Apple, if something can be unplugged they make sure it uses a proprietary Apple-esque connector and do not go with the industry standard (example would be the SSDs they put in everything from MacBook Airs upwards). They do not use the standard SSD nand connection.

There were people who got MacOS to boot on an ARM-based Pi, but I'm not advocating breaking any license agreements, SO DO NOT DO THIS. The idea behind it though was to be able to develop for ARM on newer versions of xCode and not pay the Apple tax for hardware. For a while though, Apple had an option of an ARM-based mac minis to interested developers. Not sure if this is still a thing though.

https://thenextweb.com/news/apples-deve ... n-arm-chip

Apple had an option of an ARM-based mac minis to interested developers.

I remember that . . .

2020

Very odd that it refers to refurbished Mac Minis as Mac Minis at that stage had INTEL chips.

"Which means developers might have to return the kit."

tperry2x wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:49 am

OpenXTalkPaul wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 8:07 am I don't yet have an AppleSilicon based Mac to build / test properly on that architecture ... The thing I don't like about them is that everything is soldered on / non-upgradable.

This is exactly my point, but it's what is happening across the entire computer industry (and has been for quite some time). Everything is deemed 'non-replaceable' or 'non-upgradable' and is soldiered on to never be removed again.

Yes, much like 'digital downloads' (no-more boxed physical media delivery), it is an industry trend, one that I don't particularly like. Although I do understand there are technical reason for it, at least to some degree, faster communications between all of the pieces, without that old nothbridge/southbridge stuff, everything directly connected, and less electricity used to boot. I think they could still add like 12 ram slots (like my PowerMac 9600 had).

(Unless you look at Framework laptops, where everything is designed to be replaced)

I have, they look very nice and it is an idea that is highly appealing to me, I hope the succeed and buck the trend.

Plus, Apple being Apple - they have the T2 security chips, which detect and prevent swapping of any hardware they deem non-apple.

There's at least one Mac that is still supported in Sonoma betas that lacks the TPM chip.
Besides being great for Hackintoshing, OpenCore OC legacy patcher can boot Ventura (and Sonoma betas) on no longer officially supported Macs (provided the chipset is Intel Haswell or newer). I may give it a whirl on my 2017 iMac core i7 workstation.

Also, Apple being Apple, if something can be unplugged they make sure it uses a proprietary Apple-esque connector and do not go with the industry standard (example would be the SSDs they put in everything from MacBook Airs upwards). They do not use the standard SSD nand connection.

I expect that will change very soon, or at least all of their new devices will support a standard USB connector, perhaps along with their proprietary ones. Not because Apple wanted that, but because of EU regulations they must now comply with. I actually like Apple's double sided contacts lightning connector design better then USB3-C.

There were people who got MacOS to boot on an ARM-based Pi, but I'm not advocating breaking any license agreements, SO DO NOT DO THIS. The idea behind it though was to be able to develop for ARM on newer versions of xCode and not pay the Apple tax for hardware. For a while though, Apple had an option of an ARM-based mac minis to interested developers. Not sure if this is still a thing though.

WHAT? I hadn't heard that, that is amazing!
I know they got ARM Windows and ARM Linux to boot on AppleSilicon, but I hadn't heard of a reverse effort being successful. I'll have to look into that. I read rumor that Apple is planning cheap Chrome-book competitor MacBook-Airs to try to retake some of the Edu market.

Yes, but totally a hobbyist project that I don't think was ever released.