OXT Lite Moving Forward

[TerryL]

We all agree that OpenXTalk Lite should remain a Minimal Modification project to compliment not compete with Paul's Multi-Feature project. We're almost there thanks to tperry's brilliant work for all three platforms, Richmond's tireless testing and ideas, and Tom's clever menu fix for MacOS 14. Hold on. Debranding is done. Cleaning-up small details, a pretty good OXT Lite 1.0 could be released mid-November. Terry

I added new Mac install instructions and two new STEM lesson stacks to my OXT Lite web page, and added a second page focused on Education. I'll listen to constructive criticism. How can educators and students be attracted to this cool app?
OXT Lite: https://tlittle72.neocities.org/openxtalk.html
OXT Education: https://tlittle72.neocities.org/openxtalkedu.html

@ tperry. I feel your frustration with MacOS signing. Take a few days away.
o Add to the Mac download readme to expect the "Throw Away" OS warning with instructions to install anyway.
o Add to the Win download readme to type "a" for "all" in the installer. If possible auto-create a desktop shortcut.
o Update Lite to 1.0 in the pList, splash, menu, about, and release notes and list there all the many improvements you've made.

Details to clean-up before a 1.0 release. Any others to add?
1) Win Toolbar should be justified left with revMenuBar.
2) Verify Win Decorations (minimize, restore, close x) in revMenuBar's upper right corner.
put the decorations of stack "revMenuBar" --should be "default"
3) Verify "My LiveCode" folder is now "My OpenXTalk".
4) Test the Linux shell() suggestion with VLC player from documentation in release notes.
Linux. No sound support. Install VLC player https://www.videolan.org/vlc/#download VLC has versions to support most Linux distros with easy install. A Linux player object bug remains unfixed, workaround is to use shell() function.
on mouseUp --shell() example
put specialFolderPath("documents") &"/Sample.mp4" into tPath
put the windowID of this stack into tID
get shell("vlc -I dummy --play-and-exit --drawable-xid" && tID && tPath) --VLC player
end mouseUp

[micmac]

This is so good


Paul... please let this be the main version.

Mic

[tperry2x]

@ tperry. I feel your frustration with MacOS signing. Take a few days away.

I may well have to. The kids are back at the school I work in, after their 1 week away for half term.
This means they won't remember their passwords for anything, so this week will be password resets. All day.

o Add to the Mac download readme to expect the "Throw Away" OS warning with instructions to install anyway.
o Add to the Win download readme to type "a" for "all" in the installer. If possible auto-create a desktop shortcut.

I'll add some accompanying information in the read-me's for each platform.

o Update Lite to 1.0 in the pList, splash, menu, about, and release notes and list there all the many improvements you've made.

Do you think my modest changes are worthy of a 1.0 release? I wasn't sure - I mean, I was perhaps only going to bump it to 0.93 possibly.

1) Win Toolbar should be justified left with revMenuBar.

Hmmm... is it not?

2) Verify Win Decorations (minimize, restore, close x) in revMenuBar's upper right corner.

I'm not entirely sure what this means. Do you mean they aren't displaying correctly?

3) Verify "My LiveCode" folder is now "My OpenXTalk".

There's a few references like this. I believe they might be hard-coded into the engine, but I'll investigate.
edit: done.

4) Test the Linux shell() suggestion with VLC player from documentation in release notes.
Linux. No sound support. Install VLC player https://www.videolan.org/vlc/#download VLC has versions to support most Linux distros with easy install. A Linux player object bug remains unfixed, workaround is to use shell() function.
on mouseUp --shell() example
put specialFolderPath("documents") &"/Sample.mp4" into tPath
put the windowID of this stack into tID
get shell("vlc -I dummy --play-and-exit --drawable-xid" && tID && tPath) --VLC player
end mouseUp

I wasn't aware there was a problem. This is when adding video to a stack?
edit: oh yes, you are right. I can't even drag a video object from the tools palette onto a new stack on Linux(!)
This needs fixing before I do much else.

edit 2: Can confirm it's very broken on Linux. Don't know how broken it is on other platforms.
Just like the browser widget on Linux, this locks up OXT and I have to force quit it.
This may be beyond my expertise, so if anyone reading this can get it to work? I've observed it's broken on MX Linux, Debian XFCE, and Ubuntu, (most commonly used according to distrowatch).

[tperry2x]

fixed the "My Livecode" reference, and renamed to "My OpenXTalk"
Lines 500, 504 and 507 in the home stack.
I'm uploading my changes now to the normal location on my site:
https://www.tsites.co.uk/sites/openxtalk/changes

However, if you just want this change, it's attached.

2023-10-30-0938.7z

(16.43 KiB) Downloaded 160 times

Edit: Have since renamed this again to use "XTalk Extensions" instead, so makes more sense.
Also - with the theme of "debranding" rather than "rebranding", if someone wants to make their own fork, this is another reference that doesn't need changing.

[tperry2x]

This is so good

Thanks Mic.
Oh, - you've reminded me. I fixed the alert icon when clearing the message box history (in my running changes 7z stack mentioned above), and credited you for drawing my attention to it.

[TerryL]

tperry, good work, you're fast. I suggested the 1.0 because I felt you were burning out. Go with a Lite .93 if that's your inclination.

I was able to install Lite on a friend's 64-bit win10 pc only if I promised to immediately uninstall it. The install was smooth right-clicking everything, no OS warnings. The black-screen installer I'd never seen before, after two tries figured typing "a" for "all" was the desired input. Starting Lite I noticed the indented toolbar and missing decorations, no time for further eval.

A few more things to verify.
1) Verify free widgets "Pie Chart" and "Calendar" are with the default widgets in OpenXTalk Lite > Extensions, and not in the user's My OpenXTalk > Extensions. (there's an "interface" folder there too, but tested and not needed with the default widgets). They're in the Widgets compressed folder I'll try to attach. Or Download: https://livecode.com/extensions/pie-chart/1-0-0/

The Pie Chart widget doesn't require scripting, the Calendar widget does:
--in Calendar widget script
on dateChanged pDate --(first change hilite of widget to text, not background)
put "You selected" && pDate into msg
end dateChanged
on preOpenCard --in cd script
convert date() to dateItems
put item 1 of it &"-"& item 2 of it &"-"& item 3 of it into tDate --yr-mo-dy
if there is a widget "Calendar" then set the selectedDate of widget "Calendar" to tDate --today
end preOpenCard

2) Verify answer/ask dialogs in Mac now have a Lite icon, and a code specified icon replaces it.
answer "This is a test." with "OK" titled "Test" --lite icon on mac
answer warning "This is a test." with "OK" titled "Test" --warning/info icon on mac

3) Mention in Progress Notes that 64-bit Linux may not support print to paper. Verify no print to paper but can print to pdf using the "print to pdf" command or 3rd party pdf print driver. (Mac & Win come with pdf print drivers, don't know about Linux). Richard reports no Linux print to paper, Richmond reports there is Linux print to paper.

4) There's an OXT YouTube page. Maybe Richmond could upload short classroom videos of students working on OXT projects? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdGi5N ... xfQvKX0NPA

5) Metacard Icons. I suggest removing them but open for debate. The .txt procedure is in the Widgets attachment.

[tperry2x]

tperry, good work, you're fast. I suggested the 1.0 because I felt you were burning out. Go with a Lite .93 if that's your inclination.

I do feel a bit burnt out, but that's nothing to do with OpenXTalk

The black-screen installer I'd never seen before, after two tries figured typing "a" for "all" was the desired input.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean the batch install script?
It sounds like it's prompting you if you want to overwrite a previous install, which you can say 'Yes' - (A) all to.

Starting Lite I noticed the indented toolbar and missing decorations, no time for further eval.

The indented toolbar, this is to provide a drag handle on the left, as requested by Richmond. If that's not what you mean, could you attach a screenshot of what you are seeing?

A few more things to verify.
1) Verify free widgets "Pie Chart" and "Calendar" are with the default widgets in OpenXTalk Lite > Extensions, and not in the user's My OpenXTalk > Extensions. (there's an "interface" folder there too, but tested and not needed with the default widgets). They're in the Widgets compressed folder I'll try to attach. Or Download: https://livecode.com/extensions/pie-chart/1-0-0/

...

The Pie Chart widget doesn't require scripting, the Calendar widget does:
--in Calendar widget script

Code: Select all

on dateChanged pDate  --(first change hilite of widget to text, not background)
   put "You selected" && pDate into msg
end dateChanged
on preOpenCard  --in cd script
   convert date() to dateItems
   put item 1 of it &"-"& item 2 of it &"-"& item 3 of it into tDate  --yr-mo-dy
   if there is a widget "Calendar" then set the selectedDate of widget "Calendar" to tDate  --today
end preOpenCard

I'm confused (easily done!) - which card / button / window does this above script belong please?
I can copy these into the Program's extensions folder, so they are there as default, however, surely these are more personal preference 'addons' / customisations rather than required plugins?

2) Verify answer/ask dialogs in Mac now have a Lite icon, and a code specified icon replaces it.
answer "This is a test." with "OK" titled "Test" --lite icon on mac
answer warning "This is a test." with "OK" titled "Test" --warning/info icon on mac

This is a runtime engine quirk - On MacOS, it draws the alerts differently to Windows and Linux.
So answering without an icon prompt on mac will give you an icon, but only in the standalone, not in the IDE. (but then, this also varies between versions of MacOS anyway )
Answering with the qualifier 'warning / information' will indeed give you the icon everywhere, so this would be the consistent approach if you want an alert icon to appear.

3) Mention in Progress Notes that 64-bit Linux may not support print to paper. Verify no print to paper but can print to pdf using the "print to pdf" command or 3rd party pdf print driver. (Mac & Win come with pdf print drivers, don't know about Linux). Richard reports no Linux print to paper, Richmond reports there is Linux print to paper.

Tested on Xubuntu XFCE, Debian, Devuan, MX-Linux and Ubuntu - all seem to output to a Canon deskjet desktop printer, and also an Epson WF fine as far as I can tell. Seems to work fine as far as I can test here (?)

5) Metacard Icons. I suggest removing them but open for debate. The .txt procedure is in the Widgets attachment.

Again, if you can provide a screenshot of this as I'm not exactly sure which ones you mean.

Remove Development > Image Library > "Metacard Icons". (These are old bitmapped images.)
a) Development > Image Library. In msg box: delete stack "revCompatibilityIcons1" of stack "revIcons". ctrl-S to save.
b) In msg box: edit the script of the mouseControl, position mouse over btn "Library Chooser" (the option menu), press returnKey. At line 71 and 72 change "line 4 of tText" to "line 3 of tText. ctrl-S to save.
c) In msg box: edit the script of cd 2 of the mouseStack, position mouse in the stack, press returnKey. At line 23 and 24 change "1 to 4 of tText" to "1 to 3 of tText". ctrl-S to save.
d) In msg box: set the text of the mouseControl to "Standard Images" &cr& "Cursors", position mouse over btn "Library Chooser", press returnKey. ctrl-s to save.

I believe these images are there for compatibility with opening older stacks. Granted, there isn't much call for that these days, however the IDs of these images were aligned with previous versions of Metacard & Runrev from what I'd found, so that upon import of older stacks (& Hypercard stacks?) - back arrows and such appeared correctly.

[OpenXTalkPaul]

This is so good


Paul... please let this be the main version.

Mic

I really don't care what version people want to see as a 'main' version, to be honest my DPE version of the IDE will always be catering mainly to an audience of one, me, and well... I have some probably not-so-mainstream nor educator related interests (which I know several of you guys are very much interested in), so I think its really good to have some diversity of interests represented.

Perhaps DPE should be seen as the experimental build, rather than OXT Lite?

Speaking of experiments, here's one I've been meaning to spend some time on:
Dr. Peter Brett's - Undergrowth: LiveCode Builder without the LiveCode
Can't get any lite-er than that!

[richmond62]

And where could we obtain 'Undergrowth'?

[tperry2x]

And where could we obtain 'Undergrowth'?

https://blog.peter-b.co.uk/2015/08/live ... e-bit.html

[richmond62]

There does not seem to be a download link to this thing there.

[tperry2x]

There does not seem to be a download link to this thing there.

I believe it's something that would need compiling from source.

[TerryL]

Adding two more widgets to the defaults was a suggestion, the scripts were for you and anyone else, they're not for the IDE. Good printing to paper is stable across three platforms. The toolbar indent is...strange. Thank you for looking into these. You're greatly advanced OXT Lite. Terry

[tperry2x]

...the toolbar indent is...strange.

Would everyone prefer if this was instead an option? So that you can hide and show the grab-handle on the left by toggling it in the preferences? The default would be a normal toolbar.

[richmond62]

I don't find the thing looks odd to me, the only thing I wonder about is if many people are going to work out it is the 'thing' to move the Menubar around on the screen.
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I thought I'd give it a drag-bar up the top, but:
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It would not let me, and, boy-oh-boy, those pale grey on white thingies do not "do it for me".

[richmond62]

Hey, Hack it or die . . . here we go.
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[micmac]

Just to complicate things...

If the menubar is movable it might be nice with a toggle for vertical and horizontal layout

Mic

[richmond62]

If the menubar is movable it might be nice with a toggle for vertical and horizontal layout

You are a "pain in the bum": but, 'sadly' I agree with you.

Lots of fancy 'farting around' in the .livecodescript file follows . . .

[tperry2x]

...boy-oh-boy, those pale grey on white thingies do not "do it for me".

Yes, I know what you mean. On MacOS, the engine does not colourise the popup menu buttons correctly.
This is also the situation on Windows in Dark mode too.

Works on Linux, but that's probably because it uses GTK or something behind the scenes to draw the controls?

Screenshot at 2023-11-04 12-50-13.png (11.36 KiB) Viewed 4808 times

It does something completely differently regarding drawing UI elements than on Mac OS and Windows.
This is why Linux supports every custom colour choice you theme the OS with. I can set the windows to Orange with a theme if I wanted, and I know that OXT would pick up on that.
Example, on Linux - I can switch between a light and dark theme, with absolutely no adjustments needed in code to compensate. Note how the button styles also change depending on what custom theme is applied?

theme-changing-linux.png (48.11 KiB) Viewed 4758 times

This does not happen on Windows and Mac OS.
On MacOS and Windows, you are pretty much limited to Light and Dark mode (and that's only by setting custom colour properties). It would be better to support this so it just picked up on the native theme setting, but it won't. (although Paul's "org.openxtalk.library.macosnativeapptools" extension and lci module "org.openxtalk.library.macosnativeapptools.lci" help massively with supporting this on MacOS and is the only reason that the window titlebars now look correct in dark mode).

I suspect that this is because the engine for 9.6.3 was never built with this support in mind for MacOS and Windows. Essentially we are 'tacking-this-on" after the fact. It would probably be better to support it via the same method that Linux is doing it, but for MacOS and Windows. So - when Apple change their buttons styles to dark grey in MacOS 10.15 when in Darkmode, the UI in LC/OXT isn't playing catchup.

Alternatively, hopefully an lci file such as "com.livecode.widget.native.mac.button.lci" could be tweaked to correct this? With a bit of hexidecimal hackery?

With this in mind, I was curious, and started looking around for lci extensions (which are kind of Livecode's / OXT's equivalent of C+ files).
Of course, my first point of call, to satisfy my curiosity was to see what the 'ex-mother-ship' offers.
https://livecode.com/extensions/
Cough. Glad I'm sitting down already. Look at the prices! Who in their right mind would pay £88.32 for a date picker?
It absolutely beggars belief.

Trying out their very few free offerings, can't say I'm that impressed:

Screenshot at 2023-11-04 14-44-55.png (18.44 KiB) Viewed 4791 times

I'd hoped the text would at least remain editable. Nope.
I also hoped it would support multiple lines. Nope.

Anyway, this is rapidly turning into a LC-bashing post, so that's enough for now.

[tperry2x]

Anyway, back on topic
Looking at the manifest of the xml, of the "com.livecode.widget.native.mac.button", it seems like it's just drawing these as SVGs, so not attempting to reference the system theme.

So, if Apple changed all the buttons in MacOS green tomorrow, Livecode / OXT would still draw them according to this svg?
I may be barking up the wrong tree here (or just barking!)

My hope is I can just simply change the properties in this XML file to change most of the appearance behaviour.