Comments on 0.97

[richmond62]

Ctrl + Shift + A

as in:

LibreOffice 'save as' is: Ctrl + Shift + S

GIMP 'save as' is: Ctrl + Shift + S

Inkscape 'save as' is: Ctrl + Shift + S

and so on, ad nauseam, the 'problem' lies with OXT, and NOT the other way round.

can't use ctrl-shift-s as that's "edit script of stack"

That's bollo as it is NOT standard, and will probably throw a lot of people "off".

I wonder why the LC team set that key command in the first place when it is just not standard?

[tperry2x]

How does this grab you?

menus.png (58.45 KiB) Viewed 877 times

(Substitute ctrl with cmd for mac)

[richmond62]

That grabs me 100% . . . and will probably grab a lot of other people, mainly because that's 'that' in most other applications.

[tperry2x]

Excellent. TerryL - please note, we've deviated from the shortcuts you requested previously for this reason.
(found original post)
https://www.openxtalk.org/forum/viewtop ... 5059#p5059

[OpenXTalkPaul]

https://github.com/OpenXTalk-org/OpenXt ... codescript

Thanks for that Paul.
I've added it, but other than removing the cmd-shift-s (save as), it does not seem to work for increasing / decreasing size of objects. Did you also edit revmenubar as well?

It works fine for me on macOS with OXT DPE edition, It may need to be adjusted the script for Linux/Win where the 'Command' key is equivalent to the Control key and 'Option' is 'Alt'.

I added it because I was editing a lot of text on macOS at the time, and my muscle memory was confused by non-standard command keys that LC Community used. IMO Richmond is absolutely correct, it's the IDE that has long used incorrect key combinations and needs to be changed to conform to common standards.

Sorry to also be a pain, but I don't know if these are your recent changes as not dated:

I used diff compare (diffuse):
Seems to be a lot that's changed?
Screenshot at 2023-12-29 14-42-09.png

I didn't say I made these changes recently and yes quite a lot has changed. I've been making small edits all over the IDE for over two years now. One of the comments that I did date was from 2022 and the file on GitHub was last modified this past July 2023.

To allow for text centering combo to work I had to change the key combo for edit card script (which was cmd+shift+c)
it looks like in revMenuBar, for edit card/edit stack script, I changed those cmd+shift+ to cmd+option+shift+C/S:
@ line 1716:
put enableMenuItem("Card Script/cmd option shift c", tIsUserTarget) & return after tObject
put enableMenuItem("Stack Script/cmd option shift s", tIsUserTarget) & return after tObject

I've never use key combos to edit the card or stack scripts before but I have used these key combos (L,C,R) to edit text alignment in various graphics programs for decades now. I thought if someone does use these combos for script editing then they could fairly easily adjust to adding in the option(alt).

I can't post the full script for my revMenuBar for you to DIFF with it because it's larger than the forums character limit.
Here's the file in the DontPanicEdition repo:
https://github.com/OpenXTalk-org/OpenXt ... codescript

[tperry2x]

It works fine for me on macOS with OXT DPE edition, It may need to be adjusted the script for Linux/Win where the 'Command' key is equivalent to the Control key and 'Option' is 'Alt'.

I think the way the shortcuts you are specifying may cause an issue on anything that isn't a mac.
I notice you are using:

Screenshot at 2023-12-31 14-58-53.png (19.05 KiB) Viewed 836 times

Where you specify "cmd" - you are right, this needs changing to ctrl for win and linux.

However, I'm only going by the way the menubuilder stack puts in the shortcuts. I'm using:

Screenshot at 2023-12-31 14-57-44.png (278.93 KiB) Viewed 836 times

I'm using "/#@C" which is the way the menubuilder stack writes it, which gives this in the menu:

Screenshot at 2023-12-31 14-55-24.png (151.42 KiB) Viewed 836 times

Although it doesn't read as nicely to the human eye, it does change the cmd to ctrl when jumping between mac / win / linux.

I added it because I was editing a lot of text on macOS at the time, and my muscle memory was confused by non-standard command keys that LC Community used. IMO Richmond is absolutely correct, it's the IDE that has long used incorrect key combinations and needs to be changed to conform to common standards.

We have since changed the "Save As" back to ctrl-shift-s / cmd-shift-s respectively for mac / win / linux. (however, keep reading further down, as discovered an issue with this)

I didn't say I made these changes recently and yes quite a lot has changed. I've been making small edits all over the IDE for over two years now.

I think this might be where OXT Lite and the RC versions differ, but that's fine. We are probably best sticking to our individual approaches.

To allow for text centering combo to work I had to change the key combo for edit card script (which was cmd+shift+c)
it looks like in revMenuBar, for edit card/edit stack script, I changed those cmd+shift+ to cmd+option+shift+C/S:
@ line 1716:
put enableMenuItem("Card Script/cmd option shift c", tIsUserTarget) & return after tObject
put enableMenuItem("Stack Script/cmd option shift s", tIsUserTarget) & return after tObject

Can you try that on Linux / Windows, as I've just discovered that ctrl shift c will always bring up a script editor window regardless. (same with ctrl shift s)

I've never use key combos to edit the card or stack scripts before but I have used these key combos (L,C,R) to edit text alignment in various graphics programs for decades now. I thought if someone does use these combos for script editing then they could fairly easily adjust to adding in the option(alt).

I was using < > for left / right align. Only because at first glance, this seemed logical to me.
I see what you mean, as InDesign uses:

Screenshot at 2023-12-31 15-20-53.png (26.98 KiB) Viewed 836 times

So, I'll switch OpenXTalk Lite to use this method too.

Edit: have just discovered that whatever I set the shortcut for 'Edit Card Script' to be:

Screenshot at 2023-12-31 15-46-20.png (8.3 KiB) Viewed 831 times

for example, that ctrl-shift-c STILL edits the card script regardless (?)

The same is true for 'Edit Stack Script'. I've set that to ALT-Shift-S (which works), but so does ctrl-shift-S (which shouldn't be the case)

I wonder if it's hard-coded somewhere else?

As a test, removed all shortcuts on this:

Screenshot at 2023-12-31 16-16-17.png (5.64 KiB) Viewed 828 times

And I can still call up a card script editor with ctrl-shift-C, and a stack script editor with ctrl-shift-S


Which, thinking about it, may be the exact reason why LC didn't use ctrl-shift-S for Save As, as it's hardcoded to the script editor?

[richmond62]

Out of the loop until Tuesday/Wednesday: Sorry.

[tperry2x]

Out of the loop until Tuesday/Wednesday: Sorry.

No probs. Feel free to pick up on it at a later date, & happy new year!

[tperry2x]

Currently, this is where I stand with the menus. Only because ctrl shift s seems to always be 'stack script' and ctrl shift c seems to always be 'card script' no matter what I do. (even if I remove the shortcuts from the menus altogether!)

menus-31-12-23.png (79.8 KiB) Viewed 808 times

[OpenXTalkPaul]

I think that enableMenu custom handler that revMenuBar uses takes care of the converting cmd to cntrl but I will look at it and test on Linux?Win again to be sure.

Yes, those key combos are 'hard coded' in the handlers that actually make them functional, IIRC I had to comment something out (it's in one of those two files) to get that working. Which is a bit odd because the rev shortcuts library loads as a front script so that should take precedence over revMenuBars script.

I was really torn over wether to use </> or -/+ for scaling textSize object properties because Web browsers use -/+ while page layout apps such as InDesign use Command Shift < and >
I went with shift -/+ because I thought it would seem more familiar to more people who've used web browsers (although with an added 'shift')
...additionally in InDesign (and others such as QuarkXPress, where many of these combos originated) there's similar combos ;/' for line-spacing that I think could be added, and [ ] for 'kerning' (letter-spacing) but we have no equivalent functionality to that.

Oh yeah... and Happy New Year people!

[richmond62]

Feel free to pick up on it at a later date, & happy new year!

Well, Yes to the first, and a BIG NO to the second as the Russians show what a bunch of unreconstructed, well, Russians, they are, and the Israelis follow a playlist straight out of the Book of Joshua (and if you don't believe that, just go and read it: God legitimises genocide). The Chinese are getting ready to jump on Japan, the North Koreans are unspeakable, and NATO is being utterly morally wet and toothless.

[richmond62]

Richmond is absolutely correct

Well, Yes, but, rather like the QWERTYUIOP keyboard: the choice of keyboard shortcuts may not be in any way either logical or intuitive at all . . .

. . . pace VHS versus BetaMax videotapes and so many other examples.

Whether 'we' like it or not though, as most people are sheep-like insofar as they get stuck in ruts, if we really do want for there to be an increased adoption of OXT (and at 4 and a half users, or thereabouts, increased adoption might not be a bad thing) we should set up any keyboard shortcuts to conform to the keyboard shortcuts that "mainstream" programs use.

If there is to be an OXT Lite 1.0, and even (crash, bang, wallop) an 'official release' of OXT 'Heavy', and I am, as promised, to pull my finger out and start writing a series of articles for teachers/adopters/tinkerers/tinkers, keyboard shortcuts and other "metalanguage" thingies should not obstruct uptake.

Were I to be as poisonous as usual (what, me? surely not?) I would suggest that in several cases where the Open Source IDE that OXT is derived from has gone wrong has been due to most of decisions being taken about it have all been made by one person who has such a conceit of themselves that while they have pretended to listen to user feedback they have acted on it extremely rarely.

In fact, all one has to do is "take a walk over to the other side of the divide" to see that, to a large extent, that is still going on.

This MAY be the reason why that exercise with an Open Source version did NOT yield what it was hoped that it would: not the Open Source exercise in and of itself, but the attitude of "the Great Leader" and his cohorts towards suggestions put forward by the "great unwashed" outside the pale (us).

[tperry2x]

if we really do want for there to be an increased adoption of OXT (and at 4 and a half users...

I think you'd be surprised. When I used to host the oxt lite files on my site, and consequently my site ran out of bandwidth because of so many downloads, looking at the web panel, it would suggest that 47 different users had downloaded it.

I would suggest that in several cases where the Open Source IDE that OXT is derived from has gone wrong has been due to most of decisions being taken about it have all been made by one person who has such a conceit of themselves that while they have pretended to listen to user feedback they have acted on it extremely rarely.

Hopefully that's not me.
Would that person's name start with a K?

In fact, all one has to do is "take a walk over to the other side of the divide" to see that, to a large extent, that is still going on.

From my point of view, I just find it frustrating when I find how badly interwoven the ide is. I'll stop short of saying it seems 'thrown together', but certainly has the feel of someone randomly throwing things at a wall and seeing what sticks.

Comments through the scripts everywhere such as "-- don't know why this happens" does not fill me with confidence. When trying to unravel the inspector, I found they were so illogically written - they go back and forwards to query various stacks constantly - needlessly. It's a wonder it works at all.

This is why I'd want a functional foundation and write it afresh without keyboard shortcuts being set in multiple places and not documented or referenced anywhere.

Just a comment like "-- for save as shortcut, also see file someObscureName.rev"
But that seems too much to ask.

Yes, I'm stood on my soap box - having a moan, and should be grateful for what I DO have. Doesn't stop it being a mess to unpick. I wish I could focus my efforts on a non-LC engine which was free (as in free - no BS), and build it from there.

I even wondered about Godot and daydreamed if an xTalk language extension could be developed, as it has all the GUI and graphics-card libraries ready-built. And it's free as in what you create is yours. No strings.

Everything else upon which to base an ide on is either:

Broken / partly implemented:
https://www.creysoft.com/xtalk/

Or, seemingly not allowed to modify due to being a commercial product / licensing (?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SenseTalk