News from Nowhere

[richmond62]

So: on another forum, there is an interesting discussion going on about tear-off menus.

I know that some members and contributors to this list seem to think that one should keep clear of the LC forums (in fact one person has expressed serious dislike of them); this is something I fail to understand: we can all learn from those forums, just as members of those forums may learn something from these forums.

It has been suggested that these could be implemented . . .

"It seems likely we could actually emulate this in LiveCode (implemented as a test-off palette), but the question is: should we?

This isn’t really in any current interface guideline and may cause confusion. On the other hand it provides a very need way of giving access to palettes where space is limited, especially where desktop space is limited…."

Personally I am not a great fan of adhering gratuitously to anyone's interface guidelines (i.e. adhere to them if doing that does not block something you feel would really enhance your piece of software).

http://preserve.mactech.com/articles/ma ... index.html

[FourthWorld]

https://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.p ... 15#p227903

[tperry2x]

I can't see why we'd want to implement this. It just adds extra things to go wrong, would be a headache to implement across all platforms, and would likely lead to user confusion. It seems a bit of a niche request.

[richmond62]

Yeah, OK: put a Quiche in the Niche.

[OpenXTalkPaul]

This isn’t really in any current interface guideline and may cause confusion. On the other hand it provides a very need way of giving access to palettes where space is limited, especially where desktop space is limited…."

It might have been in the Apple's Human Interface Guide or in 'Inside the Macintosh' somewhere, but that was decades ago.

Where space is limited, EXACLTY! It was GREAT to be able to pick something from the tools palette and then not have to close or hide the palette to get it out of the way again. it just disappears back into the menu bar, but if you wanted it to stay on screen you would just drag it out of the menu until it popped out into it's own window. Screen size on the original Macintosh was 512 × 342px. Given that little screen real-estate it was pretty-much a necessity but also an Insanely great solution to the problem.

I don't think it would be justifiable to do the work to emulate that behavior now that the average computer has much more screen area to work with. But I would love to have IDE palettes that could merge into, and separate from, each other's stack window (or at least appear to), similar to the way Adobe's App's Palettes behave.

[OpenXTalkPaul]

Of course I would bother, because now I have to know if it would even work the way I was thinking it might work.

It doesn't, at least not on macOS. menuStack works in menu buttons in stack windows, but not from the in macOS menubar.

I vaguely remember seeing screen shots of it being able to work that way, but it doesn't seem to work now.
I made a quick test menubar, with sub-stack with Piano Widget to use as menuStack:

MenuStack.jpg (37.44 KiB) Viewed 739 times

Now I'm wondering if macOS window 'drawer's still work. Probably no one is even using that?

[OpenXTalkPaul]

Code: Select all

draw stack "test" at left of this stack aligned to top

Doesn't seem to work (anymore?) at least not on macOS
What it does do, seems to be the same as using 'palette stack'.
No mention in the Dictionary of that syntax being deprecated, but there's this note:

Cross-platform note: On Mac OS, Unix, and Windows systems, drawers are not supported, so the drawer command opens the stack as a palette instead. The palette uses the current rectangle of the stack and does not resize or move it.

Which is another one of those Dictionary entrees seems to be from the late 1990s (macOS referring to System 9, 'Unix' instead of Linux). I mean this had to have worked on some OS at some point in time, right?

[richmond62]

I was never that interested in this sort of thing, but over breakfast replying on my phone. I seem to remember the term 'sheet' somewhere.

Ah, a sort of way of turning a (sub)stack into a dialogue centred in another stack . . . sorry; obviously better get on with my second cup of coffee.

I swear I remember stacks sliding out of the top/bottom/sides of stack quite some time ago.

Maybe I should have a look on my 10.6.8 thing.

I have a 'LiveCode Dictionary' app on my Android phone which I use about twice a year.

[richmond62]

Well, Hey-Ho from my MacOS 10.6.8 machine and LC 7.1.4:
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Screen shot 2001-01-01 at 2.14.23 AM.png (47.46 KiB) Viewed 730 times

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Which, as the Dictionary has no term 'draw' should not really surprise me.

Aha: "someone else" didn't have their second cup of coffee either:
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Screen shot 2024-02-02 at 10.48.27 AM.png (185.72 KiB) Viewed 730 times

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Although, in LC 714 that is a load of old cobblers as ALL it does is palettise the substack in exactly the same place on the screen where I had it when I made it.

Needless to say, the Dictionary had not been updated from whenever that feature was removed.

I'll have a go in Runtime Revolution 4:
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Woof!

[richmond62]

Bob's your uncle (you know, the one the family only talk about in hushed tones as he has 'been away' for about 15 years):
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Whether:

1. That's a good thing (it could be 'faked' without DRAW).

2. The code can be 'rejigged' to bring it back (err: possibly it is no more than a few lines commented out: but where?).

Is something to chew over.

I am 'off' outwith Bulgaria from 3 - 11 February, with only access to Xubuntu 23.10 . . .

[richmond62]

LiveCode 6.0.1 is the FIRST Open Source version of LiveCode, but this [stops me]:
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Screen shot 2024-02-02 at 11.07.41 AM.png (127.25 KiB) Viewed 723 times

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I wonder if LC might be legally obliged to supply anyone who wants access to the Open Source versions that required registration with a 'bypass code' or somesuch?

Would be grateful if FourthWorld could chime in on this one.

I wanted to see if 6.0.1 would still 'do' the slidey-slidey thing.

I am unable to locate my registered version of RunRev 4.5 (not that that really matters as my main concern is to find out whether the code for the slidey-slidey is still present in an Open Source version).

But, Hey, LC. 6.5.0 'Community' (pause to boak into conveniently positioned bucket by my desk) can do the slidey-slidey:
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Screen shot 2024-02-02 at 11.15.46 AM.png (245.63 KiB) Viewed 720 times

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Something makes me think that this feature was 'silently' removed at the 6 - 7 transition (but left in the Dictionary).

I was wrong! In 6.7.10 the slidey-slidey feature has gone, BUT the substack is NOT palettised:
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Screen shot 2024-02-02 at 11.19.51 AM.png (427.41 KiB) Viewed 720 times

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The really odd thing is that I have used this 32-bit polycarbonate iMac (2006 ?) running MacOS 10.6.8 MORE since Christmas than ever before
(I bought the machine for 25 Euros about 7 years ago).

Turns out to be a very useful piece of kit: especially for xTalk 'forensics'.

[richmond62]

perhaps some 'pruning' required:
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Screenshot 2024-02-02 at 12.13.30.jpg (270.26 KiB) Viewed 701 times

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Enuff sed!
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Screenshot 2024-02-02 at 12.20.06.jpg (234.76 KiB) Viewed 699 times

[tperry2x]

I was never that interested in this sort of thing, but over breakfast replying on my phone. I seem to remember the term 'sheet' somewhere.

Ah, a sort of way of turning a (sub)stack into a dialogue centred in another stack . . . sorry; obviously better get on with my second cup of coffee.

I swear I remember stacks sliding out of the top/bottom/sides of stack quite some time ago.

Maybe I should have a look on my 10.6.8 thing.

I have a 'LiveCode Dictionary' app on my Android phone which I use about twice a year.

Please see my post:
https://www.openxtalk.org/forum/viewtop ... 5715#p5715

regarding sheets, this is probably broken in 'Big Surly' - Works on Mavericks still, as per my screenshots.

[richmond62]

Sheet works with MacOS 14 Sonoma:
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SShot 2024-02-02 at 15.13.27.png (120.53 KiB) Viewed 670 times

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But a sheet is NOT the same as a slidey-slidey thing.

A sheet is very useful for home-made dialogue windows, warnings, and so forth.

But a sheet stack BLOCKS the stack behind it: and that is not always desirable.

A slide-out substack can be used to contain HELP or REFERNCE notes that an end-user can refer to WHILE continuing their work.

A slide-out stack has the great advantage that one does NOT need to clutter up one's main app window with all sorts of gubbins that confuses the user rather than helps them.

Personally I think bringing back drawer would be a big plus.

[richmond62]

I assume (possibly wrongly) that the drawer code is NOT in the engine for 2 reasons:

1. It seems that LC changed their engines at major version changes (drawer became non-functional somewhere between versions 6.5.0 and 6.7.10.

2. It was possible to have this cross-platform.

[richmond62]

Just to add that drawer stacks on OS X are not supported since we moved to Cocoa (in LiveCode 6.7.0). In other words, the "drawer" command will work only with LiveCode versions < 6.7.0

https://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=27582

I'll have to see if drawer works with Linux.

I have never really like Cocoa: personally I prefer Carob.

[richmond62]

I do think that slide-out substacks could be a very good thing.

[richmond62]

The claim that:

Just to add that drawer stacks on OS X are not supported since we moved to Cocoa (in LiveCode 6.7.0). In other words, the "drawer" command will work only with LiveCode versions < 6.7.0

might [require further testing], as my test stack does NOT produce a sheet thing with LC 963 on Xubuntu 23.10.
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963 sheet linux.png (54.97 KiB) Viewed 627 times

[tperry2x]

answer [something] as sheet only works on MacOS.
Under Linux and Windows, the sheet displays as a normal alert window.

sheet-dictionary.png (128.68 KiB) Viewed 574 times

[FourthWorld]

Would be grateful if FourthWorld could chime in on this one.

I have nothing to offer that isn't in the governing license.

I don't mind helping where I can but I'm not an attorney. Far more importantly, literally EVERYTHING this project uses and shares is governed by that license, so it really is worth the time to review it.

I'd prefer not to have to read EULAs too. I'd prefer a lot of things. But my job has always required me to understand the terms of the software I use. On this project, every role here benefits from reading the governing license.

The text of the license is here:
https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.html

The FAQ for it is here:
https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html

Going forward I'm happy to discuss anything that evidences a reasonable effort to understand the license. But it really is important that contributors read it, and it would be a disservice to the project for me to do anything which furthers the notion that reading the licenses for the software we use is optional and unimportant.

One encouraging thought: with standardized licenses like the ones most open source projects use, you only need to read it once for all projects that use that license. The opposite is true with EULAs for proprietary software; they can differ, and often do, requiring us to read every one of them for every version of every package our work depends on.

Make a tea by the fire and enjoy an evening's read...